Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

I certainly do. It is 100% as repellent as the chant "No school in Gaza tomorrow, there are no children left"

So we deduce that there is racist hatred among some people all over the world.

Tiggersreturn- sighhh I wish people read my posts properly. I said until the recent actions by Israel I have never heard anything bad about Jews or towards Jews. Not that it isn't happening. That it is a recent thing and not an attitude of hate towards all Jews that has surrounded me as an adult or child.

This spike in horrible behaviour towards Jews is very similar to what happened to Muslims after September 11, 7/7 and Lee Rigbys Murder.

Although I have witnessed horrible behaviour towards Muslims unrelated or not in retaliation to the above acts over many years. Where as I had never seen anything similar to Jews before the recent attack on Gaza.

So that is why I was perplexed.

Pigletjohn I have never heard anyone say anything like that. Where have you heard it?

Goldvelvet the key difference between all those events is they were reactions to terrorist attack on 2/3 cases home territory and the 3rd one intended to represent Western civilization as a whole. The reaction to an "other" in your midst when representatives of that "other" have inflicted terror and death on your own land is rather different to a worldwide increase in attacks on Jews in every country because of events happening in the Middle East.

Is anyone attacking the Russians in the UK at the moment? Is anyone attacking Muslims for ISIS' actions?

And yes there are other anti-semitic acts ongoing over the years but in recent years there are many who use events in the Middle East as a convenient outlet to "let it out".

I'm also perplexed how people can read something and completely twist it and turn it into something different!

I think we all know some people are racist, or prejudice. What I was saying is that I haven't witnessed this being aimed towards Jews. and other posters backed me up saying they had also not witnessed this. But had with other religions and minorities.

I didn't say it wasn't happening now in light of recent events. I just said I didn't see it as popular feeling among many, especially growing up. So the everyone hates Jews thing that gets thrown around, doesn't ring true to me.

Because before the awful things that have been shown to be happening in Gaza their wasn't lots negative connotations to being thrown about about Jews on a daily basis. Which there were/are over religions, races etc. etc.

It then went off on a tangent about the holocaust.

Also I think another Issue with Israel that may cause people to group Judaism and Israeli as one and the same is that the flag features the star of David. So it heavily groups the Jewish religion to the Jewish people of Israel.

I'm not saying that this is at all justified to group all Jews with Israel. but just saying how the connection may easily occur for some people. This is not an excuse just an observation.

And I will finish by saying I don't hate Jews, never have never will.

goldvelvet, I really don't think anti-Semitism at the time of the Nazis can be described as the feelings of 'a few at a moment of time in history'. For one thing, if it was only a few people who felt that way then it would never have been allowed to happen. But also, anti-Semitism has been widespread across Europe since the Middle Ages, possibly earlier - if anything, the present day is the 'moment of time in history' where these feelings have diminished, rather than the other way around. It wasn't confined to the Nazis and their allies, either - in Britain we had plenty of fascists of our own.

I know quite well a family (in this country) where all the members of three generations on one side have committed or attempted suicide because of the effects of the Holocaust. Only the eldest was himself in a concentration camp, but the psychological effect of seeing what that level of evil had done to their close family led his children to take their own lives, an effect that was likewise passed down to his grandson, who is only in his twenties now. You can't dismiss the Holocaust as something that happened 'in history' because for many Jews it is still a very real event that continues to affect their lives today. 70 years is just not enough time for an ethnic group to say 'Well historically a group of people tried to exterminate us from every country on the planet and succeeded in murdering over a third of us globally in brutal and degrading ways, including forced medical experiments, while causing untold psychological damage to countless more, and for the majority of our oppression the rest of the world just looked on. But people's attitudes have changed now, so we'll be fine'. You can't possibly compare that to the threat of invasion of the UK by the Germans. To a hypothetical situation where they invaded, rounded up most of our population then tortured and murdered one in three of us just for being British, not to mention invaded other countries in order to wipe out British expats there, maybe - but I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that we'd still be 'shifty and paranoid' around them if that was the case!

I'm not trying to excuse the current actions of the Israelis, just saying it's not at all unreasonable for Jews globally to still fear persecution. If the equivalent happened to the Palestinians you wouldn't expect them to be over it in three generations - in fact I imagine it would be difficult now for many of them to completely trust the Israelis within that timeframe, even if the bombing campaign stopped immediately, pre-1967 borders were re-established tomorrow and all refugees were allowed right of return. And looking at this purely numerically, the number of deaths in Gaza alone would have to be greater than 600,000 to be comparable in scale to the Holocaust. Try coming back from that in less than 70 years.

tiggersreturn.

That chant was being sung at a protest in Tel Aviv

'don't bring it up in a way that they feel everyone is still out to get them.'

'go on and on like they are second class citizens'

'We're not really shifty around Germans now and paranoid that they want to invade England. Even though this was a very real threat. I just don't understand why they feel like everyone still hates them.'

'have the notion that everyone hates them and wants them dead'

'it was a minority inflicting such horror. Not the world collectively wanting all Jews dead.'

'they don't bring up slavery and segragation all the time in relation to the racism that is still continually present. Where as Jewih people bring up the holocaust, but I don't see the continued presence of ill feeling towards Jews that was behind the holocaust.I don't see the correlation between the holocaust and treatment of Jews today. So to bring it up in that context isn't relevant to me. the holocaust which wasn't a global feeling towards Jews). nor do I think it should be used as a basis of how people view Jews now.'

These are the parts of your posts I was responding to, if it wasn't clear. (If you feel I've taken any of these quotes out of context then please say so.)

alAsward
goldvelvet, I really don't think anti-Semitism at the time of the Nazis can be described as the feelings of 'a few at a moment of time in history'. For one thing, if it was only a few people who felt that way then it would never have been allowed to happen.

Well it was a few in the relation to the population of the whole world. It wasn't everyone everywhere against the Jews. An evil man had an awful ideal that he wanted to enforce was at the heart of it. There were more people out there that didn't have that ideal or he would have succeeded. There is always more good than bad in this world. But occasionally in pockets this balance tips and I feel that this is the case in this current crisis.

It's nice to here you write with so much passion on the feelings about the Jews during the holocaust. It was a horrific time.

I really hope that the children that have been lucky enough to live through 3 wars in Gaza don't grow up with the same mental torment. But I doubt that this is possible.

I still stand by all that I have said and it reads much more effectively in context than quotes.

I still stand by that I don't think peoples as whole hate Jews and I have only ever heard positive things about Jewish/people faith up until very recently.

Really don't get why that's an issue?

PigletJohn I don't understand the relevance of that - I don't think anyone is disputing that there's racist hate among all people all over the world. A poster said she had never witnessed anti-Semitism in her life, and in response people provided evidence that it did happen. No-one's said Jews can't be racist, or that other forms of prejudice don't exist, or even (I don't think) that prejudice against Jews is currently worse than other forms of prejudice (I might have missed the last one if it's on the thread, please give me an example if so).

If a poster responded to someone saying they had never witnessed any incidences of Islamophobia with examples of things that had happened to her as well as news articles detailing anti-Muslim attacks around the world, I wouldn't respond with a video of Muslims in a completely different country cheering after 9/11 and say 'there is racist hate among some people all over the world'. It's not like it would cancel out what happened to her and other Muslims.

alAsward - why is such a big thing that I haven't experienced anti-Semitism?
Surley that's a positive thing? No?

Might I add if you read up the thread other posters also agree with me and some of those that work in schools.

goldvelvet, if you read my last paragraph that's sort of my point about the children of Gaza (admittedly it's tangential to my main point about the Holocaust still having an effect today).

It's not an issue that you haven't personally witnessed anti-Semitism or feel that people don't hate Jews. I haven't personally witnessed racism (as you say you have) - I am a middle-class white woman, and the few black friends I have grew up in similar environments to me and were lucky to have experienced minimal racism as well. I genuinely feel that people on the whole don't hate black people, and maybe (I hope) you can say the same. None of that is an issue.

The issue would be if I were to talk about 'black people going on and on like they are second class citizens' or 'bringing up slavery and segregation all the time' when I am not part of the group that's been affected by those things. Like a man saying that sexism's over, it's not my place to say that racism isn't a problem in our society and black people shouldn't feel the need to talk about it, and it's not yours to say the same about anti-Semitism. In fact even if you were Jewish (or I was black), I still don't think it would be ok to say that, because we wouldn't be able to speak for everyone in that 'group'. I hope that makes sense?

X-post. That was poor phrasing on my part, I wasn't meaning to criticise you saying you hadn't experienced anti-Semitism - sorry if that's how it came across I was just trying to reiterate the context of tigger's post and why I felt the post about there being 'no children in Gaza' wasn't an appropriate response to that.

Sorry, the post about the 'no children in Gaza' chant is what I meant.

alAsward you have never witnessed racism in your whole life
Never heard someone say a racist joke? Or a degrading remark, or used a racial stereotype. Really?

I never once said people hate black people. But I still feel that prejudice and racial profiling is still rife and very real in the black community. And some out right racist behaviour is still present.

I was talking about my own personal view on the situation and how the acts of the holocaust and spike in anti-semitism as a direct result of Israel's attack on Gaza are not related in my eyes. Might I add I wan't the person to bring up the holocaust for this reason as I didn't personally see the correlation.

Yruapita - you focus on an example of racial tension within Israeli society and call it an increasingly intolerant place to live in. Like any society, racial prejudice occurs, but in Israel there is full opportunity to challenge it and rights are protected within war (as indeed the legal challenge to the prejudice in the article that you linked to showed).

Israeli society goes to extraordinary lengths to accommodate a whole raft of minorities, religious and ethnic groups. Pride in Tel Aviv is one of the most colourful and well-supported gay events in the world. The sacred sites of all religious groups are protected with full freedom of worship. Women enjoy full rights as per in the west.

This is not the case amongst many of Israel's close neighbours, where non-Muslim religious sites are destroyed, Jews are not allowed to be even resident (let alone challenge prejudice through the courts), women are forbidden to drive or show their faces and being gay is a death sentence.

When you consider that Israel is in a long-standing and bitter conflict with the Palestinians, on home turf right here and now, it is unsurprising that prejudice, mistrust and hatred sometimes occurs between Jewish and Muslim Arab communities within Israel (it goes both ways). But it is remarkable that there remains a lot of cooperation and peaceful coexistence between the communities too.

This is quite an interesting article about Palestinian citizens of Israel.

These Jewish-Arab schools in Israel are a small step in the right direction.

There have been several instances on this thread (and its predecessors) where people have quoted a disgusting chant, or a joke in terrible taste, or an extreme opinion by an Israeli columnist ... and the conclusion on this thread has been "that just goes to show how awful the Israelis are".

Believe me, there are plenty of extremist Muslim chants, bad taste jokes and garish newspaper columnists doing the rounds. But I would never dream of attributing it to the opinion of a whole nation or a faith, to make a cheap political point that one side are the goodies.

Imagine if the reputation of the British was determined by BNP, or some hysterical Daily Mail column, or some comedian making an outrageous joke. Would that mean we would be wrong/right to intervene in Iraq? Would that be a portal into how the nation thinks or into the Christian outlook?

goldvelvet, I understood you very well. You have made the following points:

1. you think there is no link between historical antisemitism such as the holocaust and today and you don't see why Jews "bring up the holocaust"
2. you think that Jews aren't, by and large, on the receiving end of much antisemitism either in England or around the world, especially compared to others
3. you think that the fact that neither you nor some other posters have seen much antisemitism adds weight to 2, especially when you have heard other forms of prejudice.
4. you think the holocaust did not reflect the views of many towards Jews at the time

If you think I'm describing your views inaccurately, you'd better have another go at rephrasing, because this seems to me a pretty clear description of what you've said.

I take issue with both the facts and the principles behind what you said.

On the facts:

• There are parts of the world where antisemitism is extremely widespread and extremely vitriolic. The UK, thankfully, is not one of those places. If you want the gory details, PM me. Or you can google.
• That antisemitism is frequently focused on both the notions of holocaust denial and exhortations to exterminate Jews.
• Much of it doesn't result in attacks because it occurs in countries where there are very few Jews.
• The holocaust was not conceived and implemented by just a few. It took the concerted efforts of tens of thousands, supported by the majority of several populaces (German, Austrian, Ukrainian, etc). That is why many German civilians were taken to death camps at the end of the war and forced to see what they had colluded in. There is extensive scholarship on this topic.

On the principles:

• Telling people that their historical experience isn't relevant to the present day is morally wrong. It is not for you to say. It is privileging your view of the world over theirs.
• The plural of anecdote is not data. You cannot know whether antisemitism is widespread or dangerous simply because of your experience, backed up by some other MN posters.

I think we are all agreed that there are some very nasty, ignorant and racist people in all areas of society who tend to rear their ugly head during situations like this.

When 9 11 happened the Islamophobia brigade went into overdrive, as they did after 7/7 and Lee rights murder. Racial assaults against Muslims increased massively. Similarly when mum was telling me that during south Africa's apartheid years here white friends in London were refused service in a shop. Sadly, some racists are now attacking jews and it is totally unacceptable.

However, I do feel that the vast majority of israels critics are not anti semitic. Fringe racists on both sides should be ignored as they only serve to dilute the arguments each side has.

goldvelvet not against black people, no (not that I recall anyway). It just wasn't an issue where I grew up or live now - I have heard plenty of Islamophobia and prejudice against Asians from people I know, though. I know that racial profiling and racism in general are still huge issues, but only from reading about it, not because I've ever experienced it myself. And I know you didn't say anyone hates black people, I was just trying to draw a parallel between my (non-)experiences of racism and your (non-)experiences of anti-Semitism (because you said you genuinely don't think people hate Jews), and expressing myself very unclearly.

Anyway, I don't mean to keep on at you, especially as in any case this is all a side point to the real issue. I was just pointing out that everyone's experience of prejudice is different depending on the community they grow up in, is all.

I just don't understand why they feel like everyone still hates them. Because from what i've experienced people don't really register Jews in a negative way. I've moved around a lot and like I said the only thing I've overheard about them is that they are good business people. Nothing negative, where as I've heard an abundant of negative things about every other minority over the years. Where it be a ''joke'' or blatant racism.

Fuck me! People really say this shit, out loud??!!

somewheresafe, I could be wrong but I don't think the vast majority of people on this thread are saying criticism of Israel is automatically anti-Semitic. In fact many of the people who have defended Israel have categorically stated that it isn't (here or elsewhere). The people who do have that mindset are, imo, mostly the same fringe extremists we should be ignoring.

^^On this thread at least, I haven't met any in real life so I don't know about that.