Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

Marmite here's a start;

www.ascertainthetruth.com/att/index.php/zionism-a-palestine/the-palestine-israeli-conflict/1066-exposing-the-lie-of-hamas-using-palestinian-human-shields

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

This explains Regev's robotic answers. Particularly interesting is the penultimate paragraph where spokespeople are encouraged to deflect and ask, what is Hamas doing for its people. This is similar to questions raised by apologists on this thread asking why arafat didn't spend his millions on the palestinians. The hypocrisy is truly outstanding. Forget that you, israel, are imposing an economic siege on Gaza but focus on Hamas wealth. Forget that you are committing genocide, focus instead on Syria. Forget that you have blockaded palestinians in, focus instead on Egypt not opening it's border.

Very disingenuous for apologists to cry 'ignorant' and 'stupid' at posters who oppose the genocide.

Marmite - Yes I'm well aware of that, I have seen the IDF propaganda. Whether that is true of not, even if Hamas do hide weapons among civilian populations, that does not justify the actions of the IDF.

And I'm sure as hell not going to feel any sort of gratitude towards the IDF for the tactics they use to warn people of incoming bombs, courtesy calls, leaflets... Roof knocking??

For those still trying to defend Israel's actions, please tell me how you think the current massacre in Gaza will bring about peace? This is a genuine question, I really don't see how it can.

Were Hamas hiding bombs on the beach when the IDF blew the four little boys up?

Id also like to know from the supporters of Israel what is the issue of discussing and negotiating Hamas' proposal?

I'll link it again for ease.
mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html

Another great piece in The Lancet 'An Open Letter for the People of Gaza'
www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)61044-8/fulltext

We as scientists and doctors cannot keep silent while this crime against humanity continues. We urge readers not to be silent too. Gaza trapped under siege, is being killed by one of the world's largest and most sophisticated modern military machines. The land is poisoned by weapon debris, with consequences for future generations. If those of us capable of speaking up fail to do so and take a stand against this war crime, we are also complicit in the destruction of the lives and homes of 1·8 million people in Gaza.
We register with dismay that only 5% of our Israeli academic colleagues signed an appeal to their government to stop the military operation against Gaza. We are tempted to conclude that with the exception of this 5%, the rest of the Israeli academics are complicit in the massacre and destruction of Gaza. We also see the complicity of our countries in Europe and North America in this massacre and the impotence once again of the international institutions and organisations to stop this massacre.

^^that is fantastic to read all the way through thank you runes for the link.

no doubt the lancet will be deemed leftist, uninformed, 'rabid', uneducated, hysterical etc as well by the apoogists cos that's gonna fly.

we could boycott the use of all israeli medicines that cannot be sourced elsewhere on the nhs. that's a huge chunk of business. i'm guessing with the lancet and the likes on board the medical profession could follow. please god. you'd hope anyone who signed up to preserve life would not want to be handing over arms money to murderers.

search engine produces nothing on how much the nhs spends on israeli medicines. anyone have access to journals etc that might have info like that? presumably a breakdown on where we source our medicines and costs must exist?

i'm thinking the nhs must be one of, if not the, biggest single point purchaser of drugs in the world surely? losing a contract like the nhs is a pretty big hit to the pharmaceutical industry of any nation i'd have thought.

if only the govt could be forced into withdrawing trade licenses.

ReigningQueen

good luck with that

I expect the Israeli press spokesman will set out the line in due course.

Just when I thought I couldn't be more affected. Saw a picture of a man holding the body of a five year old boy killed by sniper bullet. How could he see the child and kill him? What kind of psychopath does that? I have turned off my twitter and facebook. The sadness I feel is so deep and I can't look at anymore sorrow. I hope this nightmare ends for the Palestinians but seems there isn't any end in sight.

Forgive me if this is a really stupid post.

Hypothetically if Hamas did invest in an iron dome and Israel could no longer launch missiles at Hamas then this would surely lead to more ground invasions.

Mossad and the IDF are not useless or ineffectual surely it would be easier to stop the threat of Hamas if they weren't blocked in and Mossad could use suveillance and the IDF could launch covert missions. To my mind this seems an easier way of neutralising violent elements of Hamas without killing civilians.

I want to put my perspective as a non-Jewish person who has been brought up in a multi-cultural society, known as the United Kingdom.

I have been reading the newspapers and posts on Facebook solidly now for 3 weeks in an attempt to clearly understand what is going on. What I realise though is that there is not much balanced opinion.

People who are pro-Palestinian refer emotively to how many people are being killed every day by the evil Israelis. These people fail to address the fact that the government, Hamas is actually a terrorist organisation, or that they are a branch in a big tree of Muslim extremists who are responsible for the mass murder of torturing and killing innocent people who don't believe in their views in other countries (I refer to Iraq, Iran and Syria and Bahrain - the list is long).

On the other hand from what I understand, Israel has gradually been encroaching upon land which belongs Palestinians, and this I believe is what led to the commencement of the rockets being launched into Israel. I agree Israel has been extremely heavy-handed, in the way they have dealt with this situation and they have killed unnecessarily.

My question though is about balance? What would have been a proportionate response of Israel, given that the terrorist organisation they are dealing with are not the passive victims that the world would have them believe. Hamas would like to see every Jewish person on this world killed and after that they would probably like all the Christian people and people of other faiths killed.

From history it is so easy to think - this doesn't affect me, but it will affect us if anti-semitism spreads in the UK and extreme Muslim groups are given a platform to voice their opinions. I have a lot of Jewish friends - if the extreme Muslim groups have their way I would be for it too.

that's a good question, 80schild.

It seems to me, in terms of the correct response, that the objective here is to put a stop to the violence and the hatred which causes attacks by both sides.

Israel has tried bombing and shelling the Palestinians before, and it has failed to bring about this stop.

In your opinion, is it likely that doing the same thing again will work this time, when it has repeatedly failed before? Only if your answer is "yes" is there any point in calculating the correct amount of deaths and maimings that are required.

Thank you 80schild for a well balanced post raising fair questions. Wannabe interesting idea re iron dome, but with regards to the numerous tunnels Hamas have spent the last decade building to cause mass destruction on Israeli towns and kibbutzes, would you simply leave those in place?

MarmiteMania

Just to check your perspective, do you consider that

"Hamas would like to see every Jewish person on this world killed and after that they would probably like all the Christian people and people of other faiths killed."

is what you call "well balanced"

What a load of rubbish,80schild
Hamas have nothing to do with Iraq, Iran, Syria or Bahrain.

How terrorism is defined is beyond a fucking warped joke

sharazade

I think perhaps 80schild is having a bit of fun at our expense.

If she had written "Jewish extremists who are responsible for the mass murder of torturing and killing innocent people who don't believe in their views in other countries"

then the anti-semitism flag would have been waved and the post deleted.

Luckily we do not have posters wishing to write such disgusting filth on our forums. There is however a worrying tone of anti-islamicism on this thread from some posters.

Hamas has become the we weapons of mass destruction.

The palestinians have been caged in like animals for years and years. So they built crude tunnels to try and escape. Can anyone blame them?

Israel is punishing palestine for refusing to remain caged. If Israel allowed freedom for the palestinians, stopped oppressing them then surely they wouldn't have to fight for survival.

And please, we've had the argument on the first thread that letting 'them out' will lead to suicide bombings. On the first thread we also established that no one supports Hamas. Yes, they want Israelis dead. Israel want palestinians dead and are carrying out this want with alarming clarity and very systematically.

Piglet I said the post on the whole was well balanced, you have just taken one paragraph. And i am in no doubt that Hamas would most certainly like to see the Jews wiped out.

I for one do not think peace will ever be reached for reasons that you say. Without condoning the sickening loss of life in Gaza, can I ask you what other nation is expected to live under the constant threat of missiles and spend half their life in bomb shelters? Ben Gurion airport was narrowly missed the other day; would your perspective change if a BA flight had been brought down? Should Hamas be allowed to keep their 'terror tunnels' built with concrete intended for schools and hospitals?

Somewheresafe Hamas built the tunnels NOT with the intention of escaping but with the sole intention of causing mass terror in Israel. Israel do not WANT Palestinians dead they want Hamas wiped out as they are terrorists. Unfortunately there is no chance of that happening.

Marmite, why dont you make your own opinion instead of preaching pro Israeli propaganda?

So Marmite does consider it well-balanced.

I can answer 80schild, if she will reply to my question.