Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

You only have to look at the images of the rubble to see Israel's purpose and end game. It is to drive out the people of Gaza, it is ethnic cleansing.

Land grab

The demo was uplifting and left me feeling proud to be a Londoner yet deep down I feel there is no end in sight.

With Israel saying ground operations could broaden significantly in Gaza after the truce I just can't help think this was on the cards and consented long before the death of the three Israeli teens. I also believe Netanyahu knew from day 1 Hamas were not involved in their death.

I agree Handsup. It's fucking disgusting and evil.

Yep, ethnic cleansing is ingrained in Israeli policies. Hatred for Palestinians is ingrained. In netanyahu and the settlers. Israel loves what the West has been trying to leave behind - colonialism.

Yet it thinks it is an enlightened nation and a Western democracy. The people in the West do mot want To be associated with anything that Israel currently stands for.

Can you explain exactly how a state 'manufactures its own terror', Xxed? Does Israel pay people to blow themselves up on buses?

I really think it is the height of childishness to point fingers and say 'it was those bad boys that started it'.

It also comes dangerously close to teetering on the brink of justifying the killing of civilians.

And we are opposed to the killing of civilians, are we not?

Somewherewest, if you and Wordsmith have a concern with trolling or any kind, then report the alleged trolling to MNHQ.

If it turns out that MN is not interested then be so kind as to wind your necks in and accept that there is no trolling on this thread.

People who are interested in free and fair discourse on this forum are obliged to abide by the rules, including confining suspicion of trolling to reporting it to MNHQ, and I am sure I speak for everyone interested in free and fair discourse when I say I would appreciate an end to the sly hints that someone is trolling.

I don't care how strongly you feel about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or how wrong you feel those posters are who disagree with you. Nothing gives you the right to ignore the Talk Guidelines.

Of course, if you are not interested in free and fair discourse, carry on with your accusations.

Yruapita - many Israelis don't want to be associated with what israel stands for. There was a protest in tel aviv today. Opinion is Israel is slowly changing.

I'm glad to hear there was a protest in Tel Aviv, that is heartening.

On my phone so can't link, but Michael Rosen read a great poem at the protest today. About Israel banning a radio broadcast reciting the names of the dead children. Reciting the names of the dead is a Jewish tradition but Israel would deny these children not only their lives but their names.

I have read both threads with great interest and wholeheartedly agree with the vast majority. I felt many of you are able to convey and seperate the truth from the lies much more eloquently than I ever could which is why I continued to silently read. But I feel so upset today I have to write something, anything to help lighten this burden of grief and guilt.

Over 1000 dead, and many, many more still buried under the destroyed homes and infrastructure. Honestly, how is this not genocide? Would the EU have 'abstained' if 1000 Europeans had been murdered? Would the US have voted 'against' if 1000 Americans had been slaughtered? No, they'd have fighter jets and heaven knows what in the air before you could utter 'fecking hypocrites'. No wonder the Palestinians tell us through charity organisations that when the whole world has forgotten us, we ask you not to forget.

The Israeli-Palestinian is an issue thats been close to my heart from a pretty young age thanks to my dear outspoken grandfather, may he rest in peace, who always felt very strongly about this topic. I have been thinking of him a lot recently, and wonder if he was here what would he have to say about the deafening silence. No doubt he'd have been at the forefront of today's protest I imagine!

He served in WW2, getting seriously injured with flying shrapnel whilst in battle. And despite numerous major operations etc the injury caused a lifelong disability and plenty of pain. But he never once complained. He did however feel anger towards our western governments over the Palestine issue. Having helped save many innocent lives from the persecution of the Nazis, and in the process losing close soldier friends as well as living with the mental and physical scars involved in war, he couldn't comprehend how after everything, why others, innocent Palestinians to be precise, were being driven out of their homes, over 800,000 of them, and paying with their homes and lives for Europe's guilt. He felt betrayed by the governments for allowing Israelis and their future generations to go on and persecute others. He never hated Jews. He considered them 'People of the Book' and held great respect for them. So no, he wasn't anti-Semitic nor would he have fought for them against Hitler if he was. The one thing he wanted to see in his lifetime was the liberation and happiness of the Palestinian people, but sadly it wasnt to be. I wonder if it will happen in mine.

The protest was small but it is a start.

One of the tragedies for me is that Jewish people are generally compassionate, generous, , high achieving and integrated in societies across the world. We are a gentle people who want acceptance and to live peacefully. Yet Israel is committing a massacre in our names, in our religion. I have spoken to friends this week who say that they can now empathise with how targeted Muslims felt after 9/11 and 7/7. It is a horrible feeling.

Even though it's a small snapshot on here I think the way people have been treated who have a differing opinion has been appalling. It's a place of debate and we should be able to express ourselves without a barrage of abuse

A poem on Palestine. Made me cry I have to admit.

Rubble under my feet or what is left of my home
Death and destruction in every direction I turn
Overwhelmed by the powerful stench of death
Hidden under masses of stone and cable
I gag on the discovery of a half buried infant limb
My stomach empty, my throat incredibly parched
With nothing inside of me to dispel the sickness I feel
And nothing in this world to dispel the evil I have seen

Yes a reoccurring theme of punishment and violence
A never-ending cycle of massacre of my people
Sudden commotion in the distance and I stare solemnly
At an ashen face mirroring my pain and misery
Bewilderment and fear mixing in the clouds of dust
Both aware of the slow moving tanks rumbling forwards
Was bombing with the artillery planes not enough
That it's necessary to annihilate anything left living?

Clambering away and hiding not an option oh no
Movement a target in this game of hunt and kill
What now, whose protective arms will come shelter me
Exposed to the enemy in full glaring view
Yet forgotten in a blur of propaganda and hypocrisy
So numb and insignificant even my emotions abandon me
Just like my mother and father and...
Many, many dear ones gone in the blink of an eye

Why.
Why all this bloodshed.
Why is my only question to you.

hoppinMad thank you for sharing that about your grandfather. He sounds like an amazing man.

Just to clarify - the point I was making in my earlier post about my university days is that, as in the case of those old fashioned notice boards, we never really know who we're talking to on the Internet.

So I'm saying we should keep an open mind about this, especially in the case of "groups" and "attitudes to groups", such as (to give my notice board example) assuming rantings about white people were necessarily posted by black people which was not the case in my experience. I was not pointing a finger at any poster but sharing my experience of attempts to manipulating feelings about a particular group.

Early on Friday morning, I messaged MNHQ about some posts I found offensive and the posting patterns a bit strange and I'm glad to see most of the offensive posts are now gone. And yes, on these sort of threads I think it's better to over-report than under-report.

wordsmith it's a classic propaganda tactic that you describe. It's clever and it works because it sews seeds of doubt.

somewheresafe:"One of the tragedies for me is that Jewish people are generally compassionate, generous, high achieving and integrated in societies across the world. We are a gentle people who want acceptance and to live peacefully ... I have spoken to friends this week who say that they can now empathise with how targeted Muslims felt after 9/11 and 7/7. It is a horrible feeling."

I feel sad and worried about this too. I have a large contingent of Jewish family some of whom are identifiable as Jewish by visits to synagogues, clothing etc. One cousin lives in Germany and someone said there'd be an increase in anti-Semitic attacks in the country.

I have focused very much on my concerns for the Palestinians in all my posts and this has reflected the events of the last week when so many Palestinians have died. But my heart also breaks for the Israeli families who have lost loved ones and I just feel the whole "war" is so unnecessary. It hasn't made anything better - only worse - much worse for the Palestinians and also worse for Israelis and even unconnected Jewish people around the world who now may feel targeted when this conflict has nothing to do with them at all.

I know the toll is now at 1000 but I am so hoping that this might still be a turning point. I am so hoping that Israelis just say, "You know enough - we are sick of being told that this path is our only option and that we have to do this." I would love to see a new government, and yes a more left wing government voted in that really cares about human rights for everyone and see Israel/Palestine on some sort of path to peace. It could make the whole world a safer place too.

My only consolation is that in my experience in SA, the darkest days actually came just before the light. I can remember after PW Botha went out and FW de Klerk came in feeling so despondent and that nothing would change. I thought we were on a course to a nuclear war as well as a race-based civil war and yes I was still personally afraid because despite my anti-apartheid activities I knew that would count for nothing in a race based war.

But somewhat miraculously all it took was a new government and I do believe it could be a simple as that for Israel. They just need to do something else instead of falling back to this "war" position.

When is an election due in Israel?

wannabestressfree: I'm sorry you feel you've suffered abuse on here. I think over-reporting is better than under-reporting and so I urge you to report any posts you feel have crossed a line. We should be able to discuss this in a civil manner but in my own case the sight of all those dead children truly disturbed me and this was reflected in my posting style which is usually far calmer and more polite. Something has gone very wrong in Israel/Palestine and there need to be changes - maybe we can agree on that much.

HoppinMad
Weirdly enough, my father was a combatant in WW2 (RAF), and like your grandfather he also sustained a lifelong injury. His brother was also in the British armed forces (Army) and witnessed the liberation, clearing up and eventual torching of the Bergen Belsen concentration camp.

Neither of them thought the Jews were obliged to continue to play a role as history's meek victims; in fact, they they were convinced that the opposite approach and was demonstrably the only rational one to adopt (smart alliances but ultimately grim determination never to be wiped out, and reliance on their own strength and not fickle international opinion to achieve that end).

The eventual establishment of the state of Israel did not come about in the end because of sympathy or the assuaging of guilt on the part of the international community. It was won by antiBritish terror before 1948 and national military defence against five states that invaded it the day after independence was proclaimed. The refusal and/or inability of other states to come to the fledgling Israel's aid despite in many cases previous expression of political support for the establishment of the state in the UN was duly noted by Israel (for instance, the US imposed an arms embargo on all combatants).

How about we start by agreeing that no strong opinion on any topic gives anyone the right to abuse other posters or in any other way disregard the MN Talk Guidelines, Wordsmith?

Math, if you think I've disregarded guidelines, then report the post.

X post - reported the above post