The poor people in the 'plane, would they have suffered?

[hellymelly]

The news is so shocking, have avoided the tv news for days but read the papers today. Combined with the terrible images of injured children in Gaza it is all so upsetting. I can't help but think about the passengers in the downed airoplane, would they have been alive when they hit the ground? Or would they have passed out from lack of oxygen before then? I just hope that they knew nothing and were killed instantly but I realise that is probably unlikely. .

This thread is in "In The News" and, although started (perhaps) following comments on a range of news sites, is also a close to at least one official statement.

The Dutch government has described "last moments" vividly, on the record at the UN.

I think that what is said at the UN is a fair subject for discussion. I had thought that deaths in such catastrophic circumstances would be instantaneous, but the Dutch government says not, and says that in front of television cameras. Thus putting it very much in the news.

Is the Dutch government excessively ghoulish (or other epithets used on this thread)? And if so, what does that mean for the investigation and support for the bereaved? Does anyone know whether there is a backlash in the Netherlands stemming from that graphic speech?

Good post Stroke.

Good post stroke

Hello.

First off, to state the obvious, this is of course a horrendous and upsetting news story, and it's difficult to conceive of any discussion of it that wouldn't be extremely upsetting for someone, or indeed for most people. That said, it is something that lots of people are talking about, and we've always thought it was a bit pointless trying to stop people talking on MN about things that are being widely discussed elsewhere (unless there's a legal issue at stake).

But, we do think it's beyond the pale to accuse someone of mentioning their child's death for the express purpose of causing guilt in other people or to close down discussions.

Of course, if there's anything you want to say about the way you think any poster is behaving, you're very welcome to tell us via the Report button.

Well I just tried messaging Rowan about this thread and deleting stuff but ended up not sending it as there's no way to do it without looking bad. It's hard to say anything without being deleted as evidenced by Phantoms posts.

It's difficult, isn't it 0dd?

I'm sure expat's express purpose in mentioning in her loss was not to shut down the discussion, but of course people do bend over to be sensitive once it has been mentioned.

Anaylasing someone's 'motivation' for expressing opinions on an anonymous net forum is like farting in the wind. Mine comes from a dislike of mawkishness.

As for 'I have a lot of PMs supporting me', well, so? I have, too, but they are . . . PMs. I don't need others to back up opinions I have.

It is an opinion, not a dictat.

nobody makes anybody read any thread,is very simple dont read,is not as if the title is misleading

ive also noticed this on other threads,i can well believe many think as PhantomTollbooth i do but many are afraid if the wrath of some posters that always happens

it happened on the Peaches thread and i just knew that would happen and im not suprised it has happened here either

you can pretty much guarantee by the title of the thread who is gonna be on it and what the contribution is gonna be

report away

I never mentioned specific posters, but, again, some like to hone in. Maybe it's time to name change like so many.

Lol. It is an open net forum. Some on the Peaches thread expressed opinions others found distasteful. That's generally what open net forums are about.

Being sad and troubled about something is not mawkish whether that be about a plane crash or the death of an elderly neighbour.

Your definitions of what mawkishness is are most definitely subjective.

I stand by my comments and believe that this time Rowan et al at HQ has got it very badly wrong. Time will no doubt tell. At what point can we tell a bereaved person they are being unreasonable and posting in a manner that makes others feel uncomfortable about the validity of their feelings because on a hierarchy of grief or loss, it doesn't compare to that of another persons? That they need to use some kind of perspective because their loss is lesser? Where the heck is THAT one going to end? So many of the people who do agree with me and other posters alongside myself HAVE experienced the loss of either their own children or children VERY close to them. Does that mean we cancel each other out?

I don't post on threads that I know will upset me and neither do I patrol them like some thread monitor keeping an eye out for anything I consider mawkish or personally upsetting or 'beyond the pale' as I have been described.

And that expression is considered racist by a lot of people now too

Some were not being sad on here, but discussing the facial expressions of a murderd 5-year- old.

I don't think it is the difference of opinion that people find hard to swallow.

It is the different weight each individual's opinion is given.

The Dutch representative to the UN had a lot to say about facial expressions, and he did so in front of the world's press.

Or is the Dutch government not fit to speak on this subject?

Beer

Lucky you. You had people IRL to talk about it too. A lot do not and frequently say on here that this is the only place they feel they can turn.

And if everybody could just keep those intrusive thoughts out of their heads, we'd not have such pressure on the MH services. Seriously, everybody reacts differently and because you were able to find the right space to put it in doesn't mean that everybody can.

no AuntieStella only the well known MN'ers and royalty,much the same then

It is very hard to understand sometimes that not everybody processes trauma and distress and anxiety in the same manner. Your way is NOT the highway.

AuntieStella, the speech was incredibly well received in the Netherlands. There have been lots of positive posts about it on social media. People seem proud that he represented the feeling a of the Dutch people passionately and compassionately. He did also express disgust at the intrusive media coverage of the crash scene.

I think the Dutch are a little broader minded and psychologically aware perhaps?

@PhantomTollbooth

And that expression is considered racist by a lot of people now too

Huge apologies if we're wrong, but our understanding is that the expression references the English Pale (a massively problematic phenomenon in itself of course, but the 'pale' being referred to is nothing to do with skin tone).