A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

I tend to think this may be the real thing that happened

"The source added that the U.S. intelligence analysis does not implicate top Ukrainian officials, such as President Petro Poroshenko or Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, suggesting that the attack may have been the work of more extremist factions, possibly even one of the Ukrainian oligarchs who have taken an aggressive approach toward prosecuting the war against the ethnic Russian rebels in the east."

But it may never be allowed to come out for political reasons. We wil have to wait and see.

'I guess if you believe enough conspiracies, some of them will by the law of averages turn out to be true'

Yes, this is where judgement comes in to it. The fifty foot lizard conspiracy theories should not be believed and are planted as a "whataboutery" tactic, so that any mention of the word conspiracy elicits the response "what about the lizards?"

Here is Robert Parry again on the Syria sarin gas attack story. While the BBC and the Sun cranked up their story as the drive to bomb Syria was stepped up by some world leaders before the UN had even had time to investigate, a legendary American journalist, Seymour Hersch, came out with a different story.

Obama faced down the pressure to attack Syria from the hawks and their media friends and Putin helped him out and a greater conflagration was avoided. Now the hawks are back and this time it is over Ukraine.

"The Collapsing Syria-Sarin Case
April 7, 2014

Exclusive: Defenders of the old conventional wisdom blaming the Syrian government for the Aug. 21 Sarin attack are going after investigative journalist Seymour Hersh, who implicates Syrian jihadists and Turkish intelligence. But the defenders are relying on long-discredited claims, says Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

One shouldn’t be surprised, I guess, that some wannabe-journalist bloggers are auditioning before possible mainstream employers by attacking investigative journalist Seymour M. Hersh for writing a groundbreaking article implicating Syrian jihadist rebels and Turkish intelligence in the lethal use of Sarin on Aug. 21 outside Damascus."

consortiumnews.com/2014/04/07/the-collapsing-syria-sarin-case/

"the U.S. intelligence analysis"

I wonder if that means "the overwhelming analysis by official resources" or "the opinions of a few people."

When I apply the fork to the question, I ask myself:
If the breakaway pro-Russians and their Russian sponsors have shot down Ukrainian planes before, when the opportunity arose (which they have); and if the breakaway pro-Russians have been provided with heavy weapons by their Russian sponsors (which they have); and if the plane was shot down over territory held by the breakaway pro-Russians and their Russian sponsors (which it was); and if the plane was flying from the direction of Ukraine towards territory held by breakaway pro-Russians and their Russian sponsors (which it was); and if Russia would very naturally wish to subsequently distance itself from the shooting down of a plane if it turned out to be a civil jet (which it was), do I need to seek out a crazy conspiracy theory to find a plausible explanation?

'do I need to seek out a crazy conspiracy theory to find a plausible explanation?'

No you don't, that is Yats's job.
You need to seek the truth and you won't find it in the Sun.

I won't find it in Russian propaganda, either.

The more I look at the photo of the cockpit posted by Global Research and watch the report subsequently redacted from the BBC website the more I believe the plane was shot down. A Russian general has explained (will try to find link later) that the BUK missile attacks from above, and the cockpit shows damage to the side. Most of the holes are exit wounds, meaning they've gone all the way through. The holes are the right size to be from a 30mm cannon, which the SU25 is armed with.

You can be sure that the US has blanket satellite coverage of the region. Had there been any evidence for a missile they'd have released it by now. It's known that there were two Ukrainian SU25s near the aircraft, and there are unsubstantiated rumours regarding a Spanish air traffic controller and an overheard conversation.

"report subsequently redacted from the BBC website "

this is the one where people describe being able to see, hear and identify planes at 30,000 feet?

That's five miles.

When you look at a plane five miles up, what do you see?

New Straits Times reports that US analysts have concluded that MH17 was brought down by a combination of air to air missile and machine gun fire. This is MSM, not 'conspiracy theory'.

Given that the source, Michael Bociurkiw, is Ukrainian/Canadian and part of the OSCE and early on the scene I'd say he has credibility. There are videos on the Youtubes showing the OSCE saying the same.

Also, a BUK (SA11) warhead has a 70kg payload and would have taken the plane apart from above, The photos I've seen show impact and exit wounds are roughly parallel.

Also, Global Research is not a conspiracy theory website, it's well known for investigative journalism.

The cockpit damage superimposed onto an undamaged aircraft. A missile is not that accurate to target the pilot.

This photo shows both entry and exit holes indicating that two attackers were present. Therefore it could not have been a BUK.

Plane hit by missile shrapnel. Note that the holes are all ingoing and are different to MH17, indicating that OSCE are right.

It is starting to look like the explanations are getting desperate. The Mail reported this but I don't think any other British media gave it much attention.

"MH17 rebels meant to down Aeroflot plane... to justify invasion: Astonishing claim by respected head of Ukraine intelligence service"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2720899/MH17-rebels-meant-Aeroflot-plane-justify-invasion-Astonishing-claim-respected-head-Ukraine-intelligence-service.html

The Mail used the word respected . I am not sure whether that is a joke or is intended to be serious.

Canadian Professor Chossuvosky and founder of Global Research has analysed this latest information himself.

"According to Britain’s foremost news tabloid, The Mail on Sunday, quoting the head of Ukraine intelligence, the insidious design of the pro-Russian rebels (supported by Moscow) was to shoot down a Russian commercial airline plane, with a view to blaming the Ukrainian government. The objective of this alleged “false flag” covert op was to create a justifiable and credible pretext for Vladimir Putin to declare war on Ukraine.

...

"In its authoritative report, the British news tabloid fails to beg the important question: why on earth would pro-Russian rebels who are at war with the Kiev regime shoot down a Russian passenger plane allegedly with a view to harnessing Russia’s support?

What’s more, according to SBU Chief Valentyn Nalyvaichenko’s statement, Moscow was helping the pro-Russian rebels in their alleged false flag op to shoot down Russia’s Aeroflot plane by providing them with a Buk missile system, which had been discretely smuggled across the border to the Donesk region of Eastern Ukraine."

...

"With the exception of Ukraine News Service, and the Daily Mail report, the official statement of the head of Ukraine’s Secret Service has gone largely unnoticed. Sofar, neither the White House nor the mainstream media, not to mention the US intelligence community have commented on the Ukrainian government’s statement.

It is worth noting that the statement of Ukraine’s intelligence service was made following the release of evidence by the OSCE mission that there were “machine gun like “bullet holes” in the fuselage indicating that the MH17 had been brought down by cannon fire from a military aircraft."

www.globalresearch.ca/desperate-mh-17-intelligence-spin-by-ukraine-secret-service-pro-russian-rebels-had-targeted-a-russian-passenger-plane/5395501

Our media has also not given much coverage to the fact that Parubiy, the far right politician, resigned with no reason given 4 day ago

"Parubiy resigned as Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council on 7 August 2014. He declined to say why, stating "I believe it is unacceptable to comment on my resignation in a time of war" on his Facebook page. President Poroshenko signed a decree confirming Parubiy's dismissal the same day.[4]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy

Robert Parry, the award winning journalist, has something on it in one of his recent articles

'Another curious development was the sudden resignation on Thursday of Andriy Parubiy as chief of Ukraine’s national security. A longtime neo-Nazi leader, Parubiy had organized and directed the paramilitary forces that spearheaded the putsch on Feb. 22 forcing Yanukovych and his government officials to flee for their lives.

Parubiy refused to explain his reason for quitting but some analysts believe it may have a connection to the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down, the source said. The U.S. intelligence analysts specifically said their evidence does not implicate Ukraine’s current President Petro Poroshenko or Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, but they did not extend that clearance to the more extreme elements of the government, the source said."

consortiumnews.com/2014/08/08/was-putin-targeted-for-mid-air-assassination/

I wonder why the Russian spin is not showing on respectable news media.

that Globule News has lots of stories about Russia. Curiously they all seem to be supportive. It certainly has some fascinating stories

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'I wonder why the Russian spin is not showing on respectable news media.'

Because they don't want the European people to know what our leaders are supporting. They don't show the shelling of Donetsk, they don't show dead bodies of women and children in parks, they don't show hundreds of thousands of refugees escaping to Russia because as our one true statesman, Nigel Farage, said "the EU has blood on its hands over Ukraine" and they don't want European voters to know about it.

They show Isis and Gaza, but not Ukraine because they feel shame.

Yes, GlobalResearch is not a site like the Sun. It has independent analysis of world events by many contributors, not all of them right, but most of them much closer to reality than the Sun.

I don't read the Sun, so if you are a regular reader, you know more about it than I do.

I do know, of course, that there are some very strange minority-interest websites around. Globule is one of them.

But they were all camped out in the Maidan for 24 hour shifts. Then when the EU coup succeeded, they all left. They feel no shame, they are paid to do a job.

PigletJohn, you would like Global Research, there is some brilliant analysis on there. You won't like the Ukraine articles, but read the rest, you will like it.

No claig, he wouldn't like Global Research. Hence him referring to it as Globule. The only 'truth' he's interested in is whatever fits his US corporate led narrative, therefore Ukraine killing of civilians = fingers in ears, plane shot down = 'Putin did it'.

today's news "Fragments of a suspected Russian missile system have been found at the Flight MH17 crash site in Ukraine, investigators in the Netherlands say"

very tactfully, the investigators say "they have not proved their "causal connection" with the crash."

Piglet, don't forget that the Ukrainians have Buks.

"MH17 Downing: CIA Analysts Won’t Support White House Claims of Russian Culpability
...
"But increasingly, critics, including analysts within the CIA, have been throwing cold water on that theory. Suspiciously, the US, which had a spy satellite located directly over the Malaysian plane at the very time of the shoot-down, and which certainly has detailed photographic images of exactly what happened, has offered no a single photo to prove its contention that a missile was fired from territory under rebel control.

Meanwhile, there are multiple claims that the CIA — and perhaps the National Security Agency too — have evidence that it was Ukrainian forces, not separatists, who shot down the plane, either using one of the several dozen BUK launchers that they are known to possess themselves, or by two Ukrainian attack fighters that were known to be tailing the Malaysian commercial jet shoot it down with machine gun fire and/or air-to-air missiles. Significantly, a Canadian investigator with the international team sent to collect and examine pieces of the crashed airliner, has said he saw holes that appeared caused by heavy 30 mm machine-gun fire –the type of ammunition used by the fighter jets — in a section of the front of the Boeing jet, as well as in both sides. Such holes in the nose and both sides of the doomed plane could not have all been caused by the projectiles released by a BUK missile, which would have all hit the plane from one direction — reportedly normally from a location beneath the plane.

A week ago, this reporter interviewed Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst with 27 years of experience at the agency, about the Ukraine crisis, on ThisCantBeHappening!’s weekly radio show that airs each Wednesday at 5 pm Eastern Time on the Progressive Radio Network (PRN.fm). McGovern says on that program that sources he knows who are still at the CIA say that the agency has refused to back the US claim that separatists or Russia were behind the shoot-down of Flight 17."

www.globalresearch.ca/mh17-downing-cia-analysts-wont-support-white-house-claims-of-russian-culpability/5397090

you're still saying " or by two Ukrainian attack fighters that were known to be tailing the Malaysian commercial jet shoot it down with machine gun fire and/or air-to-air missiles. Significantly, a Canadian investigator with the international team sent to collect and examine pieces of the crashed airliner, has said he saw holes that appeared caused by heavy 30 mm machine-gun fire –the type of ammunition used by the fighter jets — in a section of the front of the Boeing jet, as well as in both sides. Such holes in the nose and both sides of the doomed plane could not have all been caused by the projectiles released by a BUK missile"

are you?

I don't know how it happened. That is what the investigators have spent nigh on a whole year trying to find out Some analysts are saying that the US and Russia both have satellite data covering the skies that day.

There are some reports suggesting that Ukraine has been given a veto over some of what comes out in the report.

"Netherlands covers up secret pact controlling investigation of MH17 crash

By Alex Lantier
22 November 2014

On Wednesday, the Dutch government invoked the state secrets privilege to stonewall queries by leading Dutch news magazine Elsevier on a secret pact controlling the investigation into the July 17 shooting down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 over war-torn east Ukraine.

What is known about the secret pact exposes the investigation into the destruction of MH17 and the killing of the 298 people aboard as a sham. In four months, despite receiving extensive data about the crash from pro-Russian separatist forces at the crash site, investigators have been unable to establish who and what precisely destroyed MH17. The investigation is not a probe to impartially establish how MH17 was destroyed, but a cover-up controlled by the far-right regime in Kiev and its backers in Washington, Berlin and other NATO states.

On August 29, the Dutch press revealed that a secret pact had been signed on August 7 by the countries in the official MH17 Joint Investigation Team (JIT): the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, and the Ukrainian regime installed by February’s CIA-backed putsch in Kiev. According to Dutch state radio NOS, “Part of the agreement is that signatories retain control of the information they contribute. So they can veto disclosure of their own data.”

www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/11/22/mh17-n22.html

yes, there are some strange rumours being pumped around by the pro-Russian sources.

It's interesting that you circulate a rumour about an alleged secret pact which none of us can see, if it exists.

Do you stand by that rumour you published today about the jet fighters and the machine guns?