A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

According to BBC Breaking News Twitter feed two Ukrainian fighter jets have been shot down over Eastern Ukraine.

Another BBC tweet is claiming that UK Government sources have said there is evidence that the rebels have been tampering with the wreckage by scattering parts of other aircraft.

see PigletJohn Mon 21-Jul-14 22:26:15

Can there be any reason why they might want to conceal or jumble the evidence?

I can't see that Putin is the sort of character who would want to save anyone's embarrassment - least of all the Ukrainians.

Putin is a politician, just like Merkel. They don't go around issuing empty threats and making demands that will ultimately fail. Putin gave Obama a lifeline in Syria. Putin wants good relations, but he won't succeed because Yats and Poroshenko have been given a green light to call this "a war against the world" and "a warning to the world". But it is Merkel who really counts. It all depends what she decides to do.

"Spooked because their constituents strongly oppose intervening in Syria's civil war and alarmed by President Barack Obama's inept handling of the crisis, members of Congress were about to vote down a resolution authorizing military strikes.

Mr. Obama was spared a humiliating defeat when Russian President Vladimir Putin tossed him a lifeline . Like a trout dazzled by a fisherman's lure, our president snapped up the bait."

"Putin openly despises your president," Russian political analyst Andrei A. Piontovsky told The New York Times. So why would he help Mr. Obama out of a jam?

The Russian leader was following sage advice offered by a Chinese general 2,500 years ago.

"Do not press a desperate foe too hard," advises Sun Tzu in "The Art of War." Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across ." If you know your enemy and you know yourself, you'll win all your battles, Sun Tzu said.

www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/09/15/humiliated_by_putin_119945.html#ixzz38J53b5N5

Putin is a politician, he makes deals, he wants to avoid world war. Remember what Farage said about Putin as an operator.

claig's statement "The Russians have released more detailed information and they have military radar info that they have not yet released. They have probably told Merkel what they have, but they may not want to embarrass the Ukrainians with the full details." makes sense if you think, like the state-controlled Russian media claims to, that the plane was shot down by the Ukrainian air force, and that Russia has proof which they choose to conceal.

If, like most of the rest of the world, you think it far more probable that it was shot down by the pro-Russian secessionist forces, and/or their Russian sponsors, using weapons shipped across the border from Russia, then claig makes no sense.

The Sun seems to believe that the rebels or Russians shot the plane down. Yats thinks the Russians did it because he says the "drunken gorillas" are not capable of it. It may not be the Ukrainian military, there are other possibilities such as the pro-Kiev militias and mercenaries who are not under Ukrainian government control. We won't know until the inquiry has access to the data.

The US says that it has no data to link it to the Russians and says that "there will be no Perry Mason moment".

I don't think it will be the Russians who did it, but I don't know, it may have been the Russians, we will have to wait for the results of the inquiry to see whether the Russians did do it.

The US says it does not have the name of the man that pulled the trigger. No surprise there. Neither do they know what he had for breakfast or the colour of his hair. They do however know that the missile was fired from inside the area controlled by the pro-Russian secessionists and/or Russian forces, and they have tracked heavy weapons being transported from Russia to the areas controlled by the pro-Russian secessionists and/or Russian forces

Respectfulness and dignity for the deceased in Holland today. Sobering.

For heaven's sake, another plane crash - in Taiwan.

No connection suggested. But just as shit for those families.

They do however know that the missile was fired from inside the area controlled by the pro-Russian secessionists and/or Russian forces, and they have tracked heavy weapons being transported from Russia to the areas controlled by the pro-Russian secessionists and/or Russian forces

No they don't know that, nor have they tracked where the BUK went. If they did they would've published their proof. They've admitted their information came from 'social media'. Infowars is reporting that the US knows where the missile was fired from, and it doesn't look good for the claims Russia was involved.

when you say "involved" does that include supplying heavy weapons to the pro-Russian secessionists and/or their Russian sponsors and helpers?

jillj72 , exactly my thoughts. So much respect shown as it should be. Very very sobering.

"Infowars is reporting that the US knows where the missile was fired from, and it doesn't look good for the claims Russia was involved."

Infowars can talk a lot of shite as well.

I see the line has shifted from "it was a Ukrainian military jet" (I would guess because that was extremely unlikely) to "it was a ground based attack to make Russia look bad". That's slightly more likely but let's face it, also probably not the truth

I'm not some kind of pro-Ukrainian nutter but this is starting to get a bit daft.

There is a lot of excellent journalism on the net from US independent journalists and analysts. It differs markedly from the analysis of some of the journalists of the Sun.

The following article is just one very good article that explains what is going on - explains how this is about the pivot to Asia, implies that Russia is the first step and the first country that needs to be neutralised before China is taken on directly by the financial elite. But Merkel understands all of this, and I don't think she will make the mistake of embroiling Germany in its third world war just to save the bankers.

The US has already dampened down its rhetoric about evidence that the Russians were to blame. I don't think Merkel is fully going along, and France will not scrap its aircraft carrier deal. The War Party's plan will not work. The Sun will screech, the puppet leaders in Europe will dance to their masters' tune, but Merkel and the Germans will not be swayed.

"Putin Knows What Happened to MH17, But He's Not Saying--Yet ....

What Putin Knows"

...

"one way or another, we’re going to know what happened. The US and Russia have the data they need to figure out where the missile was launched and who launched it. They probably even have recordings of communications between Air Traffic Tower and the airliner. They know it all, but they’ll probably be cautious about what they reveal and when they reveal it."

www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/22/what-putin-knows/

There is also a lot of completely insane "journalism" on the net.

I have looked at your link.

Australian PM would like to help

What he says is true, but I doubt the pro-Russian secessionist gunmen who control the site will want anyone to displace them.

I suppose Oz has no particular history with Russia or Ukraine so his offer may be less unwelcome than most.

As well as the crash in taiwan yesterday, theres another plane gone missing this morning in mali (www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28460625)

Not suggesting a link either. But do planes usually have crashes/go missing as frequently as this, or does it just seem more frequent cause of the rolling news?

Working link

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28460625

whenever there is a popular story about a major plane/train/mine/bus disaster, the media picks up on anything similar, and so does the mind of the reader.

If plane crashes were not at the forefront of our minds already, we might pay less attention.

"PRIME Minister Tony Abbott has accused Russian separatists of engaging in a criminal cover-up, amid fears the returned black box recorders from Flight MH17 may have been tampered with."

www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/separatists-cruel-jokes-as-tony-abbott-slams-industrialscale-subterfuge-over-mh17-disaster/story-fni0cx12-1226998086676?nk=e9d25d6896385e1bcc2c6ada4215c703

I doubt the rebels will trust Abbott's impartiality and so may not accept his offer of help. But Putin may tell them to.

Yeah i thought that piglet, thats why i wondered what the actual stats were.

Found this...
www.ibtimes.com/how-many-planes-crash-every-year-how-many-people-die-plane-crashes-chart-1560554

Last 10 years, there have been 150-200 crashes per year (including commercial and private flights). That works out as 3-4 a week roughly, so yes, it is 'normal'.

I wouldn't trust Abbott to find his arse with both hands so I agree with them.

I like Abbott because of his scrapping of the "carbon tax", but he has been disappointing over this, but it is understandable when you realise how politics really works. Truth, impartiality etc does not really come into it.

Merkel has impressed me. Alex Salmond, as usual, has impressed me and of course Farage has impressed me. Yats has done what I thought he would do, but you can't expect anything different, that is how the world works.

Farage has impressed you And who the hell is Yats? I've seen him mentioned lots but I can't work it out...

I hope some answers start to come out - particularly for the Dutch. If the scene or flight recorders have been tampered with then shame on the rebels who haven't really acquitted themselves over the last week.

I find the whole thing still incredibly scary as whilst the doom laden commentary has died down, Putin clearly thinks the rebels are fighting the good fight...

Someone linked to how this disaster is being reported in Russia and I would recommend a read..