A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

"'The pro-Russians and/or their Russian sponsors have shot down Ukrainian planes before'

Yes they have shot down helicopters, a transport plane and a Ukrainian fighter jet"

So, as you agree, they are in the habit of shooting down planes as and when the opportunity arises and they have suitable weapons in the right place.

"It probably allows weapons through."
It most certainly sends heavy weapons, including tanks. And we have seen plenty of evidence of Russian soldiers, vehicles and equipment in Ukraine. Removing the insignia does not remove the nationality. Or are you clinging to the falsehood that these soldiers are "concerned local citizens" who purchased their uniforms, weapons and vehicles at some local uniform, weapon and vehicle shop?

"the Russian view "
they are of course doing their best not to admit guilt for this terrible crime.

Well they would, wouldn't they?

'So, as you agree, they are in the habit of shooting down planes as and when the opportunity arises and they have suitable weapons in the right place.'

Yes, they try to shoot down planes that are bombing them, but they have never been able to shoot a plane at 33000 feet because they don'have the weapons to do so and even Yats, Poroshenko and all the rest of them refer to the rebels as "drunken gorillas" who are not able to operate such sophisticated weapons.

I agree that there are Russians fighting there. The leader, Stelkov himself, is a Russian, but they are volunteers and Russia has not sent thousands of troops in.

I think that Yats and Poroshenko and some others want the Russians to admit they did it. Yats and the rest don't say that the "drunken gorillas" did it, they upfront say that the Russians did it. Whoever did it, we assume it was a mistake, so if the Russians are found to have done it, then maybe Putin will admit that a mistake was made. The Ukrainians made a mistake in 2001 and shot down a Russian airliner and the Americans made a mistake and shot down an Iranian airliner once.

I don't think the Russians will be found to have made a mistake, but we will have to wait and see for the results of the inquiry. It is possible that they did do it.

Channel 4's Matt Frei asked just now on Channel 4 News, if we can come and inspect the site then one wonders why the experts can't come.

That reminds me of what the Russian said on BBC Radio 4 this morning. He said that the independent international experts can come, but they haven't come. So far only the Ukrainian authorities have come and the OSCE have come.

"Yes, they try to shoot down planes that are bombing them"

Such as transport planes you mean?

Nonsense.

They shoot down Ukrainian planes as and when the they have the opportunity and they have suitable weapons in the right place.

"have never been able to shoot a plane at 33000 feet "

Until now.

Are you watching Channel 4 News? Did you see Matt Frei ask some excellent questions of a Ukrainian government representative as to why they haven't done more to create a ceasefire, since international inspectors would want safety of a ceasefire. Putin and Merkel want a ceasefire. I don't know if Cameron has asked Yats for one.

No I'm not.

We know that

• The pro-Russians and/or their Russian sponsors have shot down Ukrainian planes before

• Russia provides the pro-Russians with heavy weapons and with trained soldiers

• Satellite and local media recording indicate that the SAM was fired from pro-Russian occupied territory.

A Sky News reporter just said "At least tonight, for the families of survivors, there is a sign of progress" What survivors? Is the woman insane?

After yesterday's reporting from the scene by Colin brazier, I will never watch sky again.

The tinfoil hat is strong with this thread today.

Ihor Kolomoisky. This geeza has the contacts, the cash and the political where withall to have made this happen. He's a Ukranian, Jewish oligarch. He has the motive to want to take attention off Israel and also to want to set up Putin. He's been spending millions of his own cash to arm Ukranian rebels, and apparently has form for commiting diabolical acts.

Of course not one of us knows yet who is responsible but the general consensus on this thread that it must have been the Russians is not necessarily correct.

this Article tells you a bit more about this man and the way things work in the Ukraine.

Ah the lizards strike back., I suspected that's what it was.

Well, it looks like DieselSpillages is homing in on the truth - it's probably The Jews.

It's enough to make one weep.

Great record, mousmous. I forgot that Sting did that.
How tragic all this violence and confrontation is! Putin is now in the "last chance" saloon. Evidence? The Ukrainian government say they have got it.

There was a good Matt Frei Dispatches programme on tonight about this.

Did anyone notice the fascinating clip that we have not been shown before?

Sky have had it on loop where the rebel leader tells the OSCE to leave the site and we have all seen it many times. Well they showed it again, but they showed us the end part which has not been shown on our newsreels. The guy says "you are in the Donetsk's People's Republic. Next time you want to come, you ask first".

Sir Christopher Meyer said now all of Europe will have to be united in their stance against Russia.

I think that will fail and Yats will end up disappointed. Cameron wants France to cancel their £1 billion project to build a warship for Russia. That will almost guarantee a victory for Marine Le Pen in the 2017 Presidential elections if Hollande does that.

I don't think that Merkel will go along fully with the united stand against Putin. So what will happen then?

But it was two years before the Air France crash in the Atlantic was located. - Beside the point, but it was found within hours. The black box wasn't found until 2 years later, as it'd sunk.

The bodies on the MH17 crash site aren't the ones from MH370, for heaven's sake. Half the world has seen the faces of those bodies, and has also seen photos of the MH370 passengers. Exploded bodies do smell of putrefaction - it's the normal smell of human intestines, I'm afraid.

I've seen a story on Facebook that the MH370 passengers were loaded as cargo on MH17. That makes sense - anybody would transport a load of rotting corpses thousands of miles in secret, get them through Schipol airport and checked onto a passenger service plane, instead of just burying them or dumping them in the sea

" the general consensus on this thread that it must have been the Russians is not necessarily correct."

And most certainly, it is not necessarily incorrect

Although the pro-Russia lobby finds itself in a very awkward position.

The stories put about by the Russian Press are largely fantasy and lies, so people who are fed on them see a looking-glass world.

None of the intelligentsia and progressive elite like Peter Hitchens, of course. He was a former Moscow correspondent. No one listens to him. He is not fashionable like Blair or any of the others who strut the global stage, but the Andrew Marr Show did mention his powerful article in this week's Mail on Sunday, because he is one of the few voices who think differently to the metropolitan elite.

He is just an old fool, an irrelevance, just whistling in the wind, while the elite strut the global stage giving countries and people's a "last chance" as yats croes that the rebels are in a "war against the world" and Poroschenko says that "this is a warning to the world".

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2014/07/mourn-the-victimes-but-dont-turn-one-tragedy-into-a-global-catastrophe-.html

"I’ll begin with an excerpt from ‘Alice in Wonderland’ of which I grow fonder and fonder as the years go by :

‘Let the jury consider their verdict,’ the King said, for about the twentieth time that day.
‘No, no!’ said the Queen. ‘Sentence first — verdict afterwards.’
‘Stuff and nonsense!’ said Alice loudly. ‘The idea of having the sentence first!’
‘Hold your tongue!’ said the Queen, turning purple.
‘I won’t!’ said Alice.
‘Off with her head!’ the Queen shouted at the top of her voice."

This is his answer to the criticisms he got for his Mail on Sunday article. I haven't read it yet because it is long, but I am sure it is worth reading.

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

Passes the tin foil...

Lovely to see people cashing in.

hitchens wrote:

"So though I am openly sympathetic to Russia in its quarrel with the EU and the US over the future of Ukraine, I can see that by far the most likely culprits for this crime are the Russian separatists, who have been encouraged, armed, equipped and assisted in many other ways by Russia. The same separatists have used surface-to-air missiles to bring down several Ukrainian military planes in the last few weeks, though this has not been widely reported, and most involved seem to regard it as falling within the laws of war."

So the possibility exists that although the missiles were trucked across from Russia with other heavy weapons, and the operators probably trained there, they might not have been regular Russian servicemen.

This is not much comfort for the pro-Russian lobby

He may be right. It all depends on the evidence. I think he is wrong but we shall have to wait and see what Yats has got as evidence and whether it convinces Europe's real leader - Angela Merkel - who will decide the entire future of our continent under great pressure to give Putin his "last chance" warning.

Book. You are overly sympathetic.

I am extremely sympathetic to the innocent families involved in this. However, having worked in the media and in conflict zones, I am dismayed at the level of reporting and the way both politicians and the media are jumping to conclusions.

To be clear, I'm not invested in either side. I am invested in the families gaining something resembling the truth. The pr offensive and spin that is passing for news may make that more difficult.

This is a tragedy and I would prefer if the focus was on finding out what happened rather than creating sides. There is excellent analysis available from military experts concerning what might have happened and how the crash site, debris and black boxes will help them to piece together the causes. imo that analysis isn't getting the focus it deserves because of political grandstanding on all sides.

it may be relevant that much of the evidence was moved before the investigators arrived, and some of it loaded onto trucks and driven away.

I heard the former UK Ambassador to Russia say that interfering with the crash evidence would make the final report less clear-cut, enabling one side to dismiss it.

It is a pity that the side with the most ability to interfere with evidence and to obstruct access is also the side looking to be the likely perpetrators.