A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

John - I am the only one who voices the emotive opinion - I have no interest in an intellectual one right now. If my kids body might be in one of those fields I'd want to be there - basically.

What insights do you have John??

For emotive read crap.

You've got no empathy and you've got no understanding about geopolitics. I'm sure many families are absolutely desperate to get out there, but they will be blocked all the way: no one in their right minds would or could take them beyond Kiev right now. It's a war-zone.

What's more you are quite deliberately inferring that these bereaved families are doing it wrong, 'where is the anger?' and that you would do it right.

'you are quite deliberately inferring that these bereaved families are doing it wrong,'

No am I buggary!!

You're provoking for an argument. I'm not interested. Go do your name calling somewhere else.

Have you ever been in an active war zone Animation?

Are you a native English speaker?

It's one thing to say, "If I were family I would be absolutely desperate to get there," but it's very different to say what you said: If one of my kids had been in that crash - I'd be there striding across and those grumpy rebels wouldn't put me off. They could bloody shoot me. Where's the anger??...Noting would stop me going to the site.

It might not have been your intention, but your posts suggest the victims' families are neither angry or brave enough. That is patently untrue and provocative.

'your posts suggest the victims' families are neither angry or brave enough.'

Not my intention at all

I am coming from the point of view how furious I would be at those rebels obstructing progress and imagining if my child was in that field. I would feel like I might as well die trying to get to my child. Cameron voiced anger this morning - and its about time somebody did.

They probably are voicing anger. Just not to you

I would have the fury and the intention to get the my child alright, if it was me, but I repeat, have you ever been in an active war zone? No amount of anger or maternal love would make it probable that you would succeed. "Grumpy rebels" (and yes I know one of them gave his non de guerre as Grumpy) suggests something very different and less malign from the actual reality of war.

Should say get to my child...

I want to see some outrage, because it's a fucking outrageous situation.

For 3 days we have had to passively watch the camera crews pan over the victims possessions over and over again - like it's normal. It's not normal. It's bad enough that the plane was shot down but we have also have to witness the rebels now oppressively standing around and disrespecting the dead ...
There seems to be a lot of pussy footing around - I want to see some righteous bloody anger!!

Chunderella - that's more like it

if you are willing to lay down your life to attract publicity, then it is worth a try.

You can expect to be turned back at one of the many checkpoints. If you kick up a fuss you can expect to be arrested and deported. If you are unlucky, or annoy a "drunken gorilla" then you might be shot or disappeared, which will cause a great deal of inconvenience and cost for somebody.

No it's not "normal". It's a bloody war zone. I suspect you, luckily for you, do not have any experience of such a thing.

PS I do share your anger at the situation, I am sure everyone does, that surely goes without saying. But implying that some foreign civilians, just because they may be in the moral right, would be able to have any positive impact by just blundering into the middle of an arena of war, is just preposterous and potentially dangerous.

When you say 'it's a war zone' are you meaning we should be understanding of the 'war zone' situation? I think the 'war zone' should have some consideration for 298 people in their field that have nothing to do with their war and war zone. Maybe they can just ceasefire long enough to pick up our dead respectfully - or if they can't do that let us come and pick them up ourselves.

Many of the bodies are not intact, have been in open air in summer for days and in countryside where there is wildlife. I wouldn't want to be working on retrieval, or see or smell the scene.

The bereaved may want to see the site where the plane came down, and of course will want to bury their loved ones. But it might be more humane for them to do that once the scene does not contain body parts, and decide whether they want to view their relatives remains once identified, cleaned as far as possible and after a description of their condition.

The locals who are working on removing the bodies (some are being taken to morgues by miners now according to the news) are I think performing a task that would floor most people.

"MH17: pro-Russia rebels will allow access to crash site if ceasefire agreed"

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/mh17-pro-russia-rebels-crash-site-kiev-ceasefire

Putin has been asking for a ceasefire. Maybe Cameron can put pressure on the Ukrainian government to stop shelling.

A war zone has no consciousness and does not have "consideration" for anything. It is an area in which human beings are doing their level best, by any means possible, to kill each other. It would be lovely to live in a world where that does not happen and where people always have respect for life and for what is right and for other human beings. Sadly, that is not the case.

or put pressure on Putin perhaps claig? You know, considering they invaded a sovereign nation and all.

And yes it is outrageous. All war is. Without exception.

"Putin and Merkel call for truce in Ukraine"

www.rte.ie/news/2014/0718/631557-ukraine-russia/

Has Cameron called for a truce? Maybe the Ukrainians will listen to him?

Take a look at Gaza, right this minute. Totally innocent people including women are dying there right now. That deserves outrage and fury too.

Absolutely, theDudesmummy. Am very disappointed with Sky. They are not giving it enough attention.

Dudes - so do we continue to just look on passively, all helpless, and hopeless - because nothing can be done .. and we better get used to it.