A Malaysian plane has been shot down in the Ukraine.

[WeAreEternal]

The flight mh17 from Amsterdam to kuala lumpor with 295 people on board, it was a boing 777.
It was shot down with a buk ground to air missile.
They say there are no survivors.

It's awful.

Not criticising at all, Bertie, but I told my dc the truth.

I followed up with 'it's very very rare, it's so unusual that's why it's on the news all the time, etc etc'.

A few weeks ago though, dd- 5 yr said 'children don't die!' I couldn't bring myself to correct her. :(

I wont describe the photo i saw that imo shouldnt have been taken, but it was just a childs body with no wreckage or anything around, so clearly taken to be 'just' of the body. It would have been identifiable to anyone who knew them. I understand the need to share photos of the crash site, the need for us to see the devastation with our own eyes to make it 'real', and that crash sites will have bodies, but this one picture crossed a line in my head. Sorry, Eves post about the monkey reminded me :(

You don't need the PIN to make use of a found credit card - online purchases only require the information printed on the card, after all. I agree these stories are probably uncorroborated, but not having the PIN is certainly no barrier to using a stolen credit card.

Apparently 22 of the children were from the same primary school in the Netherlands

DS is a worrier. I would usually tell him the truth about everything in an age appropriate way, but this was the first time I have outright lied because I felt it was too close to home, and too much for him to cope with. I don't want to make him nervous about flying. Yes, I think it was just the fact that it's the first time a story that he's aware of has been so horrific I lied to protect him. I've never had the whole "why did I bring a child into a world so horrible" but now I understand.

Yes you can use cards online with just the info on the card. Has there been looting then?

Jst heard news, yes there has been :(

Re: using cards online, in some cases (and I can't think offhand of what specific circumstances) you have to confirm that the delivery address for an item is the same as where the card is registered to.

My 4yr old has heard bits about it on the news and we now fly several times a year - the first thing all my dc's do when we sit down is look at the safety card and talk about what to do if there's a fire.
Keeping the radio and t.v off as much as possible today.

Sky news reporting that the rebels have been accused of removing bodies. I have no words if that's true.

Those poor, poor families.

I'm not watching the news, keeping up with this thread and bbc website instead.

Can't describe how outraged I feel at the investigators being obstructed from doing their job. Where is humanity? What is wrong with people? Outrageous.

Such a contradiction to the humanity being shown by other folk on the ground who are trying to ensure the deceased are respected.

More important at this point is securing the site, ensuring loved ones can be taken home to their families, a neutral investigation to determine what, who, and when.

And then a considered response.

Outrageous, so so sorry for those affected by this awful act of destruction.

I have a lump in my throat hearing and watching the news. Its so scary the worlds gone mad.

Im probably being nieve here, I dont know how these things work but why arent any other countrys stepping in ?

I'd guess that its because the ukraine military cannot police the area as it was before, never mind now they know they have the 'big' SAMs. Afaik, the military planes shot down previously were shot with the shouldermounted kind, not this kind. And i'd guess that any kind of going in "all guns blazing" from anyone, would put the existing evidence and bodies at greater risk of destruction. Asking nicely and waiting would appear to be the most sensible plan atm

Miss tired, it's very difficult for other countries to step in - for example you wouldn't really want British troops sent there, would you?

This is a disputed area, it used to be part of the Ukraine but it's now in the hands of the separatists.

If they were any tin-pot separatists that may be fine(?) but these are pro Russian separists - that makes things difficult...

Ideally the UN could get involved - but the UN can do little without agreement of its major powers Eg Russia...

It's very grim indeed.

Bbc news site is down

Localised problem Stealth. No problems with BBC website here.

Right. Just never come across that before. When I worked in web development the bbc site was the one we relied on to always be up so we could check our web connection.

Everyone should be utterly outraged by this tragedy.

Unfortunately the Russians, separatists or otherwise will not be held to account.

The UK and US will do the demanding on behalf of the Dutch through the UN Security Council Meeting the UK has called for tomorrow over the issue.

All very well to convene a meeting but Russia is also a permanent member of the UN Security Coucil so that route is unlikely to be fruitful.

You can forget the EU taking any action as Russia as Mrs Merkel will not want to jeopardise Germanys large Russian export market and Europe is also reliant on Russian gas supplies.

And we cant do anything alone as our hands are bound by membership of the EU and the fact that any response including sanctions must come from the EU which wont happen.

It's all about self interest unfortunately.

The Cold War did not seem as scary as the unpredictable times we are currently living in.

Thank you for explaining.

actually, we are back in the cold war.

Putin's Russian Empire (formerly the Soviet Union) invading and occupying its smaller and weaker neighbours.

Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Georgia, Crimea, Ukraine... he's following the same script, with slight modifications in the methods used.

BBC was slow for me on Thursday to the extent it didn't load.

I have just read this on the BBC news website:-

"a Newcastle-based charity, the Percy Hedley Foundation, has said it is caring for a disabled child whose mother, father and siblings were on the plane"

There are no words

RT's Sara Firth has resigned over their coverage of this abomination, especially the blaming of Ukraine, calling it 'the straw that broke the camel's back'.

Oh no that poor child