Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

I think she is shuddering at the thought of having at least 5 kids!

Given that many people on this thread are commenting as they are appalled at the number of children being killed by Israel, I find your 'shudder' comment to be in very poor taste.

What has multiple wives got to do with anything? is that the only other thing you would shudder at? I shudder at murder of children killed while they are playing.

I agree with backinthering

Ok it may have been a poor choice of words but dontvlet that detract from the rest of what Sam has said.

As for mis guided demonstrators then I'm proud to say I'm a Londoner & will be one of those mis guided people out there. I have faith the number of people standing up for human beings will out way the ignorant!

Quivering :(

Quivering yes agree that was appalling. It also completely negates the point of the protests.

quivering yes agreed that is not the purpose of the protest this protest.

Weekend* that was meant to say!

Again apologies for the Daily Mail link, but these pictures do show the human cost of what is happening:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697019/Israeli-soldier-dies-overnight-Gaza-ground-offensive-Palestinian-death-toll-rises-260.html

I'll be attending the demonstration in Glasgow tomorrow.

Quivering - what does that actually mean? (It sounds nasty.)

Having said that, we shouldn't play into the hands of extremists who spout ugly stuff. Here in South Africa, you don't have to go far to find a black leader leading a chant at a rally of "Kill the boers! Kill the whites!" (usually to cover his own corruption or incompetence) and if you look on the Internet (indeed on that fairly normal IOL newspaper website I linked to above) you will find the ugliest racist stuff - I'm taking really nasty stuff - comparing black South Africans to baboons and disgusting things like that.

But please don't rise to it. I suspect peace will have to be found at a grassroots level for Israel/Palestine or at least start there. We were lucky to have FW de Klerk and Nelson Mandela. I'm not sure the Hamas and the Israeli leadership can be trusted to the same extent (although having said that it's easy to say FW and Mandela were so great in retrospect - I can remember loathing FW when he first came in and being genuinely amazed at what he did and Mandela was regarded as a terrorist by huge numbers of white people).

In the absence of decent leadership it will be up to people at grassroots level to find peace. There is a lot ordinary people can do. See for example jewishvoiceforpeace.org/toolkit.

And no I don't trust the Hamas leadership at all. And I don't trust the Israeli right wing - which it seems to me is basically the government at the moment? But the trouble is if we rely on them to find peace we're stuffed. A lot of change in SA came from ordinary people marching (or toy-toying in our case!) and for that reason I really support the protests and think they're important. I don't know what else to do as the leaders aren't listening to anyone.

Actually Quivering don't worry to translate - why give such ugly words oxygen.

That is awful Quivering. I am not sure what it means either but I can imagine. Unfortunately there are idiots filled with hate out there who will latch on to this for their own ends. I wish they would stay away from demonstrations as it distracts from the real issues

There is a translation on the Facebook page.

Apparently left-wing Israelis being attacked and beaten in Tel Aviv, with one being hospitalised.

mondoweiss.net/2014/07/fascists-occupation-activists.html

That is awful Backinthering. I also read about ordinary Arabs being attacked in Jerusalem. Mobs in - see jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/we-oppose-the-privileging-of-jewish-lives-over-other-lives.

I quote from that article, "Mobs in the street chanting "death to Arabs" and pulling out Palestinian men from their stores to beat them as other Israelis stood idly by."

On a personal level I am disturbed to see some support on facebook from people I vaguely know - bible-believing Christians who seem to support expansion of Israel into the West Bank and Gaza - and this crushing military campaign - because it's "bible-based". It is extremely odd and sad that all these deaths are apparently ok if it's part of God's plan.

Those Daily Mail pictures are heartbreaking - including that beautiful Israeli boy (and let's face when you're my age you realise that 20 years old is just a baby) who died. So sad that his parents have been manipulated into probably believing that this was only the way. That their son had no choice.

There's a song from the anti-apartheid struggle which urged white South African to stop and listen to the sounds coming from the township. The lyrics of the song say, "It wasn't roaring - it was weeping."

We were told to beware of the evil blacks and taught to fear them but in fact the truth was they were being oppressed and their communities devastated. But we were told that they weren't like us so it didn't matter. They apparently didn't care if their families were killed. (Why else would they protest on the streets like that with their kids and put their kids in danger?) This song urged white South Africans to listen to the sound from the townships and explained it wasn't war-like roaring - it was weeping. Always made me cry. See

It was censored because the band (reluctant conscripts into the apartheid army) sneaked in Nkosi Sikele (now our national anthem )

Take a look at the lyrics - Israelis are being conned in exactly the same way - see www.weeping.info/Weeping-lyrics.html.

Just realised, for the first time, that judging by the surnames, the band Bright Blue was made up - not just of white South African boys - but white Jewish South African boys.

Wordsmith I've been reading your posts with special interest as I'm from Southern Africa as well, and you point out the parallels between apartheid and the current Israeli situation so eloquently.
I haven't heard that song for years, it's made me cry.

I know Backinthering - I don't think it's possible to be from our part of the world and get through that song without sniffling! I was trying to be a bit hard saying it used to make me cry - it doesn't now - oh no, not at all! But at least now it's quite a happy weep that much of the crap (not all - let's be realistic) is behind SA. Let's hope for the same for the Israel/Palestine.

Word the lyrics are very poignant and moving. Thank you for sharing.

Regarding sams point about there being no jews in Arab countries, I suspect this may because many of them will have chosen to move to Israel. Also as Israel increased its attacks and land grabbing the anti Jewish feeling in the Arab world caused tensions which may have prompted jews to leave Arab countries. Having said that, historically jews have lived peacefully amongst Arabs for centuries. The worst persecution they have faced has always been among Europeans.

It's heartbreaking to see the palestinians living under occupation where they can be executed without trial en masse and where they have no legal recourse. Add to that the sanctions, the destruction of infrastructure and essential health services, poverty and psychological trauma. How anyone can defend an illegal occupation like this I do not know.