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Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

971 replies

AndHarry · 17/07/2014 11:50

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

OP posts:
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ReigningQueen · 23/07/2014 22:31

Fakebook that is awful but I'm not surprised anymore. Everything Israel has been doing is linked to propaganda and lies.

Forget ceasefire. It looks like they want total control of Gaza according to this DM link
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699724/Israeli-footage-reveals-moment-ten-Palestinians-killed-try-tunnel-country-bringing-latest-death-toll-501.html

ColgateSmile · 23/07/2014 22:35

Fakebook - that really is unbelievable.

I've just had a quick google and apparently a similar scheme ran in 2012 where 'students would be paid $2000 to post pro-Israel messages online for five hours a week'.

Wow.

ColgateSmile · 23/07/2014 22:36

Oops, link to the article I just found:www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/14/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782.html

justasecond · 23/07/2014 22:48

Fakebook, yes this has been going on for a while now. I feel sorry for Israelis as they really are victims of their own governments brainwashing and propaganda. I saw this today, I dont believe a word of it, there are no pictures of these so called supporters for a start. Complete fabrication imo.

www.jerusalemonline.com/news/world-news/the-israeli-connection/even-in-iran-and-turkey-israel-we-stand-by-you-6603

zinher · 23/07/2014 22:49

Power has been cut off across gaza city! Can't believe no one can do anything to stop this. Entire families killed.

AndHarry · 23/07/2014 22:53

Just scanning through the article Fakebook posted, it strikes me again what a terrible idea it is to have conscription. Surely it compounds pre-existing ideas of Palestinians being 'the enemy', utterly depersonalising them, gives too much power to immature young people and exposes them to combat situations where not only are they in grave danger but are also seen, for want of a better phrase, as not having the same buy-in as professional soldiers and it therefore being 'worse' if they are killed.

OP posts:
Fakebook · 23/07/2014 23:17

I'm really suprised this wasn't "big" news when it was first published. If it was Iran, you can imagine what the headline would have been. It seems Israel really can get away with anything.

Justasecond, the link you've posted talks about support from all around the world, but there is also a Palestinian version too (see pic). Sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict
TheHoneyBadger · 23/07/2014 23:21

it's the ideal way to ensure total ownership of people's minds though. it is MEANT to compound those ideas andharry and a part of why so many are so able to totally dehumanise them.

TheHoneyBadger · 23/07/2014 23:22

interestingly seeing as all who've done military service remain reservists there are actually very few israeli 'civilians'.

Yruapita · 24/07/2014 02:58

Human shields seems like a myth to me, which has been repeated over and over until the world has believed it - where is the proof? Israel's diagrams? Yes hamas rockets were stored in an empty school and they shouldn't have, but that is not a human shield.

Even the Palestinians are saying that they have never been asked to be human shields, so is this just another lie from Israel?

I also find it amazing how Netanyahu can target hamas members, whether in a combat or militant role or not, but Israelis are all civilians (unless on active duty) despite having compulsory 2 year military service.

Note: i am not saying its ok to fire rockets.
Israel will never be safe unless it ensures that palestinians are given their rights.

Saw this in the Guardian, covering the funeral of an israeli soldier

Tomer Siyonov, 22, a friend of the dead soldier, who finished his own compulsory army service two months ago, drew deeply on a cigarette as the eulogies were delivered. "Hamas killed my friend; we need to kill them – not just the Hamas militants but all the people in Gaza," he said.

This is what The israeli soldiers are taught - their pin-point operation is to kill every child in Gaza.

GoshAnneGorilla · 24/07/2014 03:13

I can't find the tweet, but the other night a Palestinian man in Gaza tweeted something along the lines of

"If I am killed in the night, I was not a millitant, I was not a human shield, I was at home."

ReigningQueen · 24/07/2014 07:24

That's so sad GoshAnne.

Yruapita I remember watching a documentary where the reporter was talking to some Jewish teenagers about a young Palestinian boy who had died at the hands of Israelis. He asked them if they felt sad about it. Not one of them did and one responded 'he would've grown up to be a terrorist anyway'

halfdrunkcoffee · 24/07/2014 07:40

Fakebook, have you seen the Stand With Us Facebook page? (I don't "like" this by the way, but I saw it in my news feed when a German friend of mine liked it.) It looks genuine.

DieselSpillages · 24/07/2014 07:43

Israelis'cheer This reminds me of the crowds watching our local firework show Sad

TheHoneyBadger · 24/07/2014 08:12

did you watch the third video down - the chanting in the streets 'death to the arabs, death to the leftists' etc. that country is fucked. i know it's not everyone but it's a big enough mass of people to cause a nation to be depraved.

TheHoneyBadger · 24/07/2014 08:15

not every german was a nazi but still holocaust happened.

not every israeli is genocidal but look at what is being done? and when you arrest and intimidate your own people when they speak against you or speak up for others you're plummeting into facism.

'death to all arabs, death to all leftists' whilst out looking to find arabs to attack. how is that any different to the scapegoating and brutalising of jews in nazi germany?

tiggersreturn · 24/07/2014 08:42

The reason for conscription and siege mentality in Israel is because this is a country which has been under attack from the moment it was conceived. When the UN announced that a Jewish home could be made in Israel and giving a partition plans between Arab and Jewish areas in 1947 the Arab response was to start shelling Jewish settlements (no iron dome then). By the time of the announcement in May 1948 that the state would be formed as per the UN partition they had been under constant fire. On the announcement of the state 5 Arab armies (not including any Palestinians) launched a war on this new state which Israel won. Incursions continued on a regular basis with full out wars for existence in 1967 and 1973. So yes that would give you a reason for military conscription. Since no lasting peaceful resolution has been found then conscription continues.

Israel has similar rules on guns to us (namely it's illegal to have them unless on military duty or with appropriate license) so yes when not on duty these people are civilians.

tiggersreturn · 24/07/2014 08:42

An interesting article

MASSACRE AT YARMOUK
JULY 22, 2014 JONATHAN MESSING
Yarmouk was home to the largest Palestinian refugee community in the country before the conflict began. 180,000 Palestinian civilians called it home. Now only 20,000 remain. Food and medical supplies are routinely denied entry and starvation is one of the three main causes of death. Recently, in the Jarabulus area, 22 people were killed and thrown into the streets to instill fear in the population. Some of them were children.

Amnesty International has called for the immediate lifting of the siege, the cessation of shelling and other indiscriminate attacks, and for humanitarian agencies to have unfettered access to the area. The disproportional attacks on civilians must end.

Down with Israel? Not quite. Yarmouk and Jarabulus are in Syria.

In fact, many in that country are decrying the lack of attention to their plight and the fact that images and videos often go viral only when they are falsely presented as being from Gaza. Marc Lynch, the Director of the Institute for Middle East Studies at GWU, put it succinctly when he said, “It must be so awkward having to check whether the dead child is from Gaza or Syria before deciding whether to be morally outraged.”

So to those condemning Israel: Are you pro-Palestinian, or are you really just anti-Israel? Many of you purportedly care so much when you really care so little. As Leon Wieseltier of the New Republic once wrote: It is easier “not to dive deep into the substance of anything. It is less immediately satisfying than cursing and linking.”

My Twitter and Facebook feeds would have me believe that the only noteworthy military conflict in the world today is that between Israel and Hamas. Either many of you care about war only when it involves a Jew holding a gun, or you are woefully unaware of what else is going on in the world. In case it is the latter, and I sincerely hope it is, here is a (very) partial list of the death tolls from other ongoing conflicts. In no particular order:

Syria: 162,000+

Mexico: ~80,000

Nigeria: ~5,000

South Sudan: ~10,000

Gaza: ~600

This is not to say that your attention and sympathies should be dictated by casualty counts. All civilian deaths are tragic. Moreover, such figures tell us nothing about the moral standing of the warring parties, especially not in the case of the asymmetric warfare that Hamas is waging. After all, the United States lost about 450,000 lives fighting in World War II while the Nazis lost over seven million, yet I would wager that none of you think the Nazis held the moral high ground. At least I hope so. The twisted logic and moral relativism of some of the posts I have been reading make me wonder.

What these figures do show is that while all war contains tragedy, including the one in Gaza and Israel, only deaths connected to Jews seem to evoke the cries we have been hearing over the number of dead in Gaza, which pales in comparison to other conflicts and is largely due to Hamas’ grotesque tactics. While there are few of you whom I would accuse as individuals of holding animosity toward Jews, there are many of you who are participating in a global, collective media assault on Israel that is indeed suggestive of something much darker.

I am not asking you not to care. On the contrary, I am hoping that you all start to care more – about the many problems in the world. Then, perhaps going forward your condemnation of Israel could be – let’s see, how I should I put this – more proportional.

TheXxed · 24/07/2014 08:50

Tiger are you saying the genocidal lunacy of Israel is mitigated by the fact that other people are insane.

TheXxed · 24/07/2014 08:54

Tiger let's be clear do you think that outrage is motivated by the fact that Jews are indiscriminately murdering children and not that fact children are being indsrciminately murdered.

ReigningQueen · 24/07/2014 08:58

Tigger are you accusing people of anti-semitism?
Why is it that people who speak out against the atrocious acts of Israel must be holding animosity against Jewish people?

If course all war is disgusting and I'll speak out against all war but the Israel/Palestinian situation is unique. The reason why people are so appalled by Israeli action is that they are slaughtering people that they have imprisoned for years, ill treating them and denying them basic human rights.
The Palestinians are helpless. They have nowhere to go, there is no escape for them, no refugee camps for them to go to. The Israelis are killing men, women and children indiscriminately. They are the aggressor.

TheHoneyBadger · 24/07/2014 09:06

there is tragedy all over the place. perhaps the reason we are so bothered by the tragedy in gaza is the longevity of the situation, the fact that it is being done by a nation that claims to be democratic and has massive trading privileges with eu and the US, that receives billions in western 'aid' and weapons and which calls itself a victim whilst committing these atrocities.

would you say any of the other countries you name on that list fit the bill? do you see our leaders paying for the atrocities in those countries? do you see our leaders standing up and calling those atrocities reasonable self defense? do you see the world bombarded with propaganda in favour of those atrocities?

no. it's not because the gun is in a jewish hand, i suspect it's because the gun is in all of our hands.

Springheeled · 24/07/2014 09:19

Tiger, god I am sick to death of shit like the shit you just posted. No one is falling for it any more and it reads like something a student who has just learnt some 'persuasive writing techniques' would write and think they were being so terribly clever.

Just to spell it out, nobody gives a flying toss about Jewishness or non Jewishness; if they oppose Israel it is because they oppose apartheid and acts of genocide

The Israeli govt could be the South African govt and still the same opprobrium. It could be the Christian leaders of America's Deep South- same opprobrium. It's acts of oppression and murder people don't like, whether they are committed by Islamists, Christians, Jews, smurfs, aliens....

Maybe what really pisses people like the writer off is that we do not care. that the Israeli govt and military are Jews? That's why you have to keep pointing it out? We care that Palestinian civilians are being murdered by a terrorist state- that's IT.

Springheeled · 24/07/2014 09:22

Yes honeybadger, good point. Just as with the war in Iraq, the propping up of Israel (and justification and defence of the settlements, the siege and the biannual 'operations' of slaughter) is something I don't want in my name or from this country's government.

ReigningQueen · 24/07/2014 09:31

Tigger what do you think of this group then and the many others like them?
www.laprogressive.com/jews-against-gaza-invasion/