Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

I agree Honeybadger

Sorry for my ignorance. Who were the Israelis fighting in Palestine before Hamas came into power? were they terrorists too?

There are people who do not wish the public ti discuss Israel's actions, and so they make a deliberate effort to interrupt and derail such discussions.

Throwing in alternative topics is just one attempt at diversion. The person is trying to head us away from the topic of this thread. They choose not to start their own topics, as they might if they did actually care.

We need to be aware of the purpose these people hope to achieve and resist geing drawn into their trap. I happen to know that during the days of Apartheid, South African embassies used to recommend this deceitful debating trick to their sympathisers.

I am sure not even those who support the bombing of hospitals, or firing shells at children playing football on a beach by Israeli forces, in order to kill them, seriously expect to convince anybody to agree "There are also other crimes against humanity committed by others, therefore we will forgive Israel"

'the United States lost about 450,000 lives fighting in World War II while the Nazis lost over seven million'

The Nazis didn't lose over seven million. Germany lost over 7 million, the vast majority civilians who weren't Nazis.

The same whataboutery is being used on both threads. It's pathetic.

Also, the example used is poor. The situation in the Yarmouk camp has been widely covered.

Also, I think it is sickening that people who care not one iota about dead Arabs in Syria are using their deaths to justify dead Arabs in Palestine.

i've had to leave a group on facebook purportedly arranged around critical thinking and rationalism populated predominantly by americans. it was a discussion on israel that prompted me to decide to leave. seems brainwashing in america is nearly as efficient as it is in israel. i know there are people waking up and protesting etc but people who claim to be rationalist free thinkers trotting out propaganda and having totally bought into the dehumanisation tactics was too much for me.

goshanne - i also think it's just another segment of the 'look at these dirty arabs and what they do - see what we're up against' tactic. they wish to make arabs look barbaric (hence the rape incitement's real tactic was to bring to mind how barbarous and 'primitive' those people are).

also the whole why doesn't egypt do something? they're dirty arabs too surely they should deal with their kind.

they don't even hear or see the constant racism being exhibited.

Tigger you are basically repeating the old propaganda which Israel has repeated for yours in order to oppress Palestine. Unfortunately for Israel it cannot exert its control over social media the way in which it has exerted its control over the media in the past. The reason why this conflict is so different is unlike no other conflict in the past the Uk and USA have empowered Israel. The plight of the people living in the Gaza Strip is so painful as they literally have nowhere to go .
www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12971-the-truth-about-israels-new-war-on-gaza--the-energy-rush
The above link I feel explains the latest act of terror inflicted upon the palistinians by Israel.
A few facts did you know
Prior to the three Israeli youths being killed, 2 palistinian children were killed in the West Bank by Israeli mortuary which was caught on camera
Did you know, that until now according to Human rights watch and the US state department there is not one shred of evidence Hamas killed these youths
Did you know that almost as soon as they were kidnapped the Israeli government knew they dead but suppressed this info and placed gag orders on the Israeli press
Did you know that despite knowing they were dead the Israeli army proceeded to carry out a series of illegal arrests across the entire West Bank under the pretext of a 'hostage situation ' search for the missing three.

Piglet is right. It's deflection. As if murdering and dehumanised is justified because other atrocities are being committed in the world.

The truth is apologists are running out of reasons to justify a holocaust and are therefore trying to deflect deflect deflect.

reality and it's pesky facts eh nads?

nevermind, just keep chanting human shields, terrorists, death seekers, self defense - it always worked before right?

I saw the same arguments on television. Anyone questioning the mass murder of Palestinians is being told that why aren't you covering Syria?

What is happening in Syria is condemnable and has been condemned by all the world leaders.

What is happening in Gaza is condemnable but is being justified as appropriate and legitimate by world leaders. Why?

My own daughter just turned 5 months. Ever since I heard of the killing of the 5 month old baby I can't thank my luck enough that I am not in a war zone where she can be taken from me in the blink of an eye.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28439551?ocid=socialflow_twitter

We need more of this. Thank god people are starting to wake up.

I read this BBC article about the suffering of the Palestinians in Syria earlier in the year and cried. I think about it a lot months on. Does that help anyone? No. But I, and people like me, do care about human suffering throughout the world. Using the Syrian example, I am glad that my government has condemned Assad but I understand the terrible dilemma the international community faces. They/we left it too late to be able to support a rebel faction that wouldn't have been worse than Assad. Now the main rebel player is ISIS. There's not a figure to rally a western-backed opposition like Mahmoud Jibril was in Libya in 2011.

In Israel it's different. The UK government has given its full support to the Israeli campaign. I disagree with them and I want to make my voice heard. I have a family interest in the conflict. Beyond that, there are considerations that make the conflict of high concern. Some time back a poster asked me personally why Israel is singled out for international attention and condemnation. This is what I replied:

I can only give my own personal opinion. I don't think that Israel is singled out particularly. Last year there were 44 deaths caused by the conflict and no one was particularly interested: all eyes on Iraq and Syria. If it is singled out, I'd guess it would be for a number of reasons, in no particular order:

- the ongoing threat the conflict causes to stability in the Middle East and Western security;
- the very influential pro-Israel lobby in Washington;
- that Israel is a Western ally;
- that several US presidents have decided to engage in efforts to resolve the conflict as their 'legacy' foreign affairs issue;
- Israel's importance in the Cold War;
- the conflicts between Israel and its neighbors;
- the strong Arab bloc at the UN;
- the predisposition of any leader of a Muslim state to conveniently blame a Zionist-American imperial conspiracy for internal imperfections;
- the deep-set conviction among much of the people of the Middle East and North Africa that everything to do with their country really is governed by an American 'master plan', with Israel as their stooges ensuring continued misery orchestrated by the CIA;
- Israel's status as a nuclear power;
- the previous British rule of Palestine;
- guilt from European persecution of the Jews, culminating in the Holocaust;
- a sense of responsibility for the UN partition plan.

It's also noticeable that Israel has a highly-skilled workforce with technology firms leading the world in areas as diverse as sustainable agriculture and drones. It's not a tinpot state run off the back of dodgy deals with the Chinese and IMF aid, it's a developed democracy with an educated electorate and a strong, diverse economy. It therefore offers both hope for a solution and a perplexing problem as how can a country so like 'us' be locked into a long and bloody conflict from its inception, with multiple conflicts with its immediate neighbors, gross human rights abuses perpetrated against civilians and such a very right-wing establishment? Hope and horror, intertwined.

The main thing though, is that regardless of what's going on in the rest of the world, the situation in Israel is not ok.

Letter from Israeli reservists who are refusing to serve in the army

When Israelis who have previously served, talk about their military experiences, they often explain that they did terrible things, but once inside the army, you have no choice.

The old excuse "I was only obeying orders" might be true, but it doesn't work.

This link is to an article on the CNN website from 21st July. It's the only source not affiliated with Israel that I've managed to find on the existence IDF field hospital by the Erez crossing, let alone it being subjected to attacks. I wonder why it hasn't cropped up anywhere else? Maybe something will be reported later.

quivering why don't you confirm it rather than posting unproven IDF propaganda.

It doesn't look like the Israelis will stop til they have full control and thus control over Gazas gas
www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

I found this article in the Cairo Post about a field hospital, but can't find anything about it being attacked.

Yep, pin-point operation.

Re the pin point operation I was sent this poem earlier. Please read it, it is one of the most powerful things I've read over the last two weeks

warpoetry.tumblr.com/post/92157173402/running-orders-by-lena-khalaf-tuffaha

It made me think of what I would do if I had 58 seconds. I doubt we would get out as we are spread over 3 floors and by the time I'd gathered my kids, run down and got the keys in the lock we would all be dead. What fear must course through the bodies of these victims. What of the elderly and disabled? What of those who have learning disabilities? Or those who for the third time in 6 years are tired of evacuating and can't run anymore, when death is better than living?

What a poem - the injustice of the whole situation makes my blood boil.