Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

You beat me to it, "AndHarry" I also believe the Palestinian people bear some responsibility for having handed a massive parliamentary majority to a party who openly advocate the obliteration of a neighbouring state

None of this makes the slaughter of hundreds right - it can never be right - but for me it indicates that, as I said, blame is not one-sided, nor is any of this straightforward

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Israel absolutely dehumanised a whole nation, brutal use them and annihilate them. Do you think Hamas would even be in power if Israel hadn't unleashed hell on the palestinians for 6 decades?

Whatever you and Israel and think of hamas they are the elected government of palestine. Israel have far worse training methods for their military as witnessed this week. And I though the first thread established that we were all in agreement that collective punishment is abhorrent.

Puzzled - you clearly have a problem with the palestinian people. You state Hamas have a desire to obliterate Israel. This may be so, but Israel has the same agenda and is carrying out in the full glare of the world. By your logic we could argue that all Israelis are to blame for voting in a sick and depraved zionist government. But we know that is not the case.

Wow.

According to this thread:

"Israel has no intention to stop land grabbing and murdering every last child in Palestine. History and the present has shown the Palestinians that Israeli soldiers and leaders are savages, intent on genocide. "

and

*"i think israel are also resolved on a one state solution also but probably trying to kill as many palestinian women and children as possible to bring the population of Gaza down to acceptable levels. forestall the demographic timebomb as it were."

So nice, measured statements. Not the Israeli government, or a few right-wing nutters, but "Israel" apparently want to do this. So could you clarify, please - from your presumably great knowledge of Israel and Israelis' inner intentions - does this genocidal hatred and murderous intent apply to ALL Israelis?

Because it's strange and quite unaccountable - but I actually know many Israelis. And not one of them wishes to harm in any way let alone murder a single Palestinian. The ones I know would very much like to be able to go about their daily lives without having to be within 75 seconds of a bomb shelter at all times. Would like to know how to explain to their children why rockets keep being fired at them. A friend's 7 year old had her party cancelled this week due to non-stop rocket fire. Is she guilty of being a putative mass-murderer too? She's seven.

Interested to hear from those on this thread who seem to think that they are the representatives of calm, unbiased rational thought. Yruapita, crescentmoon etc.

And I though the first thread established that we were all in agreement that collective punishment is abhorrent.

We did indeed. You might also have noticed that I am no fan of Israel's leadership or tactics. The Palestinians, IMO, are entitled to resist occupation. The list above though shows where I utterly condemn their actions. Like this one: the murder of Tali Hatuel, who was 8 months pregnant, and her four daughters aged 2-10. That Israel are wrong does not make everything Palestinians do right and vice versa.

Topbanana

The Israelis may resent having to be close to a shelter at all times

The families of the hundreds of Palestinians recently killed might envy them that privelidge.

Topbanana

Are you able to conceive of disgust at the actions of "Israel" being the actions of the state, as commanded by the government and carried out by the armed forces?

Are you able to conceive that these repellent actions are a result of the voters of Israel putting into power people willing to perform such acts?

However we can distinguish between the actions of the state and the actions of individuals.

I am sure you will agree that not all citizens would have had to do more than drive the trains, and may say that would not have wanted, personally and individually, to carry out criminal acts of violence. Many of those who did may say that they were only obeying orders. Indeed this is often said by IDF people when expressing regret for what they have done.

Oberon posted an interesting article from The Independent. Has anyone got an authoritative source describing how young Israelis and Palestinians are taught about one another?

topbanana you know very well that i am referring to the government and the IDF.

The BBC reported that 90% of Israelis supported the air campaign. So I would say my comments are very 'measured' considering.

If the stats are wrong, take it up with the BBC. Admittedly I cannot find the article on BBC but hVe found it on this site. I definitely read it on BBC.

www.thedailystar.net/thousands-flee-northern-gaza-death-toll-reaches-172-33295

Its interesting how you worry about my statements being 'measured', yet no mention of Israel's 'measured' response. Or need I say israeli government!

Also we have seen many Israel apologists stating how they dont wish to kill Palestinians, but support Israel's decision to bomb the living daylights out of Palestine. Because bombsanddeath dont go hand in hand do they!
V
Care to explain to the families of dead babies and disabled that their loved ones that Israel killed them because it wants to live in peace!

The little Israeli girl should not have to live with threats of rockets, the little Palestinian girls would swap to have the life of that little girl in a heartbeat.

So lets not apportion equal blame, because the oppressor and the oppressed are not the same.

PigletJohn - is Israel stopping Palestinians building shelters? Or sheltering where they can? By no means all Israelis are near a shelter at all times - how do you think people get to work, school etc? Can they go out at all?

My friend with the 7 year old dd posted on facebook about how she dared to go outside with her dd for a brief moment - and there was an air raid immediately, leaving them nowhere to hide. And she lives in Tel Aviv, a major Israeli city, not on the border with Gaza, or in a settlement.

Puzzled - you clearly have a problem with the palestinian people

No, I have a problem with anyone who believes that violence can ever be an answer; where they come from is of less importance to me than their intent

I'm truly sorry if that doesn't happen to suit, just as I regret the seeming insistence that blame belongs exclusively to one group, and that any view to the contrary is somehow beyond the pale

This is from the Guardian: this guy is not trying to kill anyone; he's just trying to get to work.

witness.theguardian.com/assignment/53b3e204e4b0bcfdaf4042e3?page=2&order=latest

"another day at the office

I live in Tel Aviv, but work in Beer She'va so I have to take a 1.5 hrs train ride to work every day. .

For the average person this usually means plenty of time to get stuff done, do some paperwork, read the news, get a bite to eat and listen to some music..

But my train ride consists of me staring out the window, clenching to my seat. Constantly on the lookout, no time for anything else.

I travel through direct missile range for at least 45 minutes. I Can't nod off, or do anything else. The siren might go off, which means I'll have to run for cover and hide.

Did I say hide? I actually meant- lying on the floor of the train, covering my head with my hands. Will it do me any good in case we get hit by a rocket? No. But at least I get to feel like I've done something to protect myself.

I get to work. Safely. I feel lucky. I run to my office (literally run), where a bomb shelter can protect me in case of an attack. This fake feeling of safety keeps me going through the working day- otherwise I'll go mad with worry.

Have you ever heard a bomb siren? Most of you have probably only heard one in old movies. Let me tell you what it sounds like- it starts out like a wailing ambulance in the distance, then gets stronger and louder until yours ears start ringing- with fear, with noise, and you have to run as fast as humanly possible to shelter.

All the mums around me cry out to their children. They are alone and missiles are flying over their heads.

My work is piling up on my desk, but siren after siren means I can't get anything done. A frenzy hubbub of people rushing around me hysterically is all I see.

One siren after the other, and then my day is finally done. I rush back to catch the train home.

Another terrifyingly hour and a half go by until I get back to Tel Aviv. I just want to put my head down and rest after this horribly long day.

But then I hear the blood curdling sound of a distant wail, an ambulance perhaps? No. It grows stronger and closer and I have to rush out to safety. This time- my staircase. Looking at my next door neighbour, in her dressing gown and flip flops.."

A seven year old child had her party cancelled?? Are you serious? Did I really just read that?
Israeli forces are killing innocent children left, right and centre in Gaza and you have the nerve to come on to this forum to bleat about a child's party being cancelled!
I didn't think it was possible but my blood is actually boiling!

"A friend's 7 year old had her party cancelled this week due to non-stop rocket fire"

This is surely a piss take?? Have you seen any of the images of mutilated, burned and dead children coming out of Gaza this week?

cross post Poppet. That one really fucking pissed me off too.

And here's one from an ordinary Israeli 26-year-old woman, could be you, could be me. She's not trying to kill anyone either.:

witness.theguardian.com/assignment/53b3e204e4b0bcfdaf4042e3?INTCMP=mic_231930

"I am AFRAID

Israel is under fire and I am really afraid. I never felt like this, and you should know - it is not what normal life looks like.

Tel-Aviv, the centre of the tiny Israel. The city that never sleeps - went to a very deep bad dream. Pubs are empty, beaches the same. No one goes out in Friday morning to have a coffee outside. Nobody wants to take a risk and to take the childrens to play in the garden. Too dangerous, can you imagine?

Alarm goes off so many times in a single day - morning, noon, evening, night. Each time we run for a shelter, RUN FOR OUR LIFE!.
And there, in the shelter, it just goes crazier - Babies, young kids, elders that barely got there on time - with sad eyes, holding each other so strong. You can hear there the girl that cannot stop crying, the 6 years old boy coming to hold her hand, and parents that cannot find the right words to say, cause seriously - what can you say?.

I am afraid, WE are afraid. Hamas sees us, the civilians, as targets. I want to wake up from this nightmare. NOW.

Reut Yerushalmi, 26 years old, Tel-Aviv, Israel.
"

and I never even swear irl

The Palestinians are blockaded. They've not been able to bring in the building supplies to rebuild their homes aftet the last lot of bombings much less build bomb shelters.
Also being crammed in, they mostly live in dense apartment blocks. Where would the shelters go?
Agree seriously bad taste comment re the child's birthday party.

Topbanana - your friends 7 year old had to cancel a party??! Seriously?! Sorry but I have very little sympathy for her. I will reserve my sympathy for the dead people in this genocide like the 4 little boys playing on the beach. There is just absolutely no comparison whatsoever either between whole generations of families being wiped out by illegal bombs and having to run to a shelter and feeling fed up.

If you had bothered to read both threads you will have seen quite a lot of support for people in Israel who are caught up in the actions of their government.

Harry - I agree. There are despicable actions on both sides.

Poppet and justasecond. Try reading the posts I just posted above. Life is not 'normal for Israelis under constant rocket fire. It is deeply traumatic. I posted about the party because it was a little thing (a big thing to a 7 year old, but a little thing) that I thought a site consisting largely of mums would understand.

Your argument seems to be that because Palestinian children have died it's OK to traumatise all of Israel including children, by firing rockets at them constantly.

Which is really stupid logic because
(a) all children, Israeli ones included, should not be the victims of any form of attack. In other words, if you think Israel is wrong to attack Palestinian children, then it is equally wrong for Hamas to attack Israeli children.
And (b) Hamas' sending of non-stop rocket fire lies behind the Israeli attacks on Palestinians. Whether you think it is a justified response or a mere pretext is irrelevant. The fact remains that without rocket attacks, Israel would have no argument or need to invade or attack Gaza.

flywayaway - no I have not 'bothered to read both threads'. I'm replying to this thread right here. I cannot be expected to search all of MN in case you have posted on the topic before.

It is not an either-or - you can be deeply saddened by the deaths of innocent Palestinian children AND feel sad that Israeli children are under constant rocket fire.

Topbanana

I gather you are unable to comprehend those who do not share your opinion.

Life might not be normal in Israel but it is a million times better than the living death Israel is inflicting on the palestinian. But as a true apologist you will have little empathy for palestinian deaths.

You have nothing of interest to add to this thread and I hope no one engages with you further.

How ironic coming from you, PigletJohn.

Topbanana

If you seriously believe that fear of incoming rockets, and having to danfel a party, is remotely comparable to actual death of hundreds, then you have no understanding.

If you are as ignorant as you pretend, of Israel's blockade of building materials, resulting in not just a lack of shelters, but of homes, sewers, water treatment plant, sewage works and electricity supply, then you need to widen your sources of information.

flyawayaway - your post says it all.

Clearly, if I do not agree with you on every point, then I "have nothing of interest to add to this thread" and you "hope no one engages with you further."

How would you feel if I said that about you?

Clearly we disagree - but I see only one of us who is so intolerant and closed-minded that they have closed down the discussion altogether.

If you think my views are wrong, by all means seek to persuade me. I am open to argument - so make your points without ad hominem abuse.