Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 8

986 replies

Roussette · 15/05/2014 09:14

here is Number 7.

OP posts:
Veritata · 12/09/2014 00:08

NormaSwilley, why are you so insistent that he's been let off when he looks highly likely to be found guilty of culpable homicide which attracts a hefty sentence?

upnorthfelinefan · 12/09/2014 00:32

I have cut and pasted this from the Defense heads of arugments. It starts at page 192 if interested in more detail. It cleared a lot of things up for me.

It looks like in order to be convicted of Dolus Eventualis or legal intent in relation to the death of the deceased.

Test A. Did the accused subjectively foresee the possibility of the death of Reeva ensuing from his conduct.

Test B. Did he reconcile himself with that possibility.

Therefore the question is did the accused subjectively foresee the possibility that the deceased was in the toilet

Notwithstanding, did he then fire the shots, thereby reconciling himself to the possibility that it could be the deceased in the toilet.

Clearly the facts show the accused thought the deceased was in the bedroom by asking her to phone the police, telling the first people he phoned and arrived on the scene that he thought there was an intruder in the toilet. He stated this from the very beginning.

There in applying the test of Dolus Eventualis, it could never ever be suggested that the accused foresaw the possibility and reconciled himself with the possibility that the deceased could have been in the toilet.

Error in Persona

The state contended:
The accused said to witnesses on the scene that he thought
she was an intruder. Even then, the accused shot with the direct
intention to kill a person. An error in persona, will not affect, the
intention to kill a human being.

Error in Persona (mistake about the identity of the person) only finds application when an accused intended to kill the identified "specific predetermined individual" but made a mistake as to the identity of that individual. His mistake will not constitute a defence.

Error in persona” does not apply to the present case. Rather, what
the State seeks to do is to introduce the doctrine of transferred intent/malice,
which does not form part of SA law.

Doctrine of Transferred Intent/Malice

The State’s argument is that even if the State did not prove the fundamental requirement that the Accused subjectively foresaw the possibility that the Deceased could be killed, he ought still to be convicted of murder in respect of the Deceased.

Here us an example

“X’s intent to kill must relate to the very person killed. This does
not mean that X must know the identity of the intended victim. It
means that cases of aberratio ictus
are not murder for our law rejects the doctrine of ‘transferred malice’; if X shoots Z intending to kill him and not foreseeing the possibility that the shot may kill Y instead, X has no intent to kill Y, and cannot be convicted of
murdering Y. If in the situation X foresees that his bullet may kill Y (notwithstanding that he has no desire, in the emotional sense, to kill Y
) X has intent to kill Y and is guilty of murder.

,

areyoubeingserviced · 12/09/2014 00:33

The reason that he has not been found guilty of murder, is that the state could not prove beyond reasonable doubt that he intended to kill Reeva. It is as simple as that.
I don't know why people are surprised by this; the judge is simply acting in accordance with the law
I think that she has conducted herself well.

areyoubeingserviced · 12/09/2014 00:37

Good post upnorth

upnorthfelinefan · 12/09/2014 01:38

I also found this on the Defense head of argument. I thought it might be helpful.

When the State relies on circumstantial evidence, it does so by seeking to rely on inferences to be drawn from the indirect or circumstantial evidence, so as to arrive at a conclusion that the only reasonable inference in the circumstances, is that the Accused intended to kill the Deceased.

The inference which the State seeks to rely on, would justify/support a conviction, only if:

“1) the inference sought to be drawn must be consistent with all the proved facts If it is not, the inference cannot be drawn.

  1. The proved facts should be such that they exclude every reasonable inference from them save the one sought to be drawn. If they do not exclude the other reasonable inferences, then there must be a doubt whether the inference sought to be drawn is correct

The onus is on the State to prove the guilt of the Accused beyond a
reasonable doubt. This means that the Accused is entitled to be
acquitted if it is reasonably possible that he might be innocent.

The Accused does not have to convince the Court of the truth of his explanations. The Court must be satisfied, not only that his explanation
is improbable, but that it is beyond a reasonable doubt false.

The Court does not have to believe the Accused’s version, still less has
it to believe it in all its details. It is sufficient if there is a reasonable
possibility that it may be substantially true.

The Court does not need to reject the State’s case in order to acquit the
Accused and it is not enough if the Accused contradicted other acceptable evidence. If there exists a reasonable possibility that his evidence may be true, he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

The evidence of the Accused cannot be rejected on the basis that it was
improbable just because it was not in conformity with the evidence given
by the State witnesses.

Contradictions in the evidence per se do not lead to the rejection of such evidence as the contradictions may simply be indicative of an error.

It is not sufficient for a witness to be credible, a witness must also be
reliable.

A witness may be credible or honest because of his/her own subjective beliefs, which he/she perceives to be correct.

However, the evidence of an honest or a seemingly honest witness may not be factually correct (and will therefore be unreliable) as it may either be contaminated by facts subsequently obtained or by his/her perceptions.

Unreliability is generally exposed when seemingly truthful evidence is in conflict with the objective facts or probabilities, or where the objective facts expose the incorrectness of the evidence or inaccuracies or improbabilities in the evidence.

Unreliability will overrule credibility (honesty).

Reliable and objective evidence serves as a safe measurement to weigh
the accounts of witnesses to determine whether the accounts of witnesses meet the requisite threshold in this case proof beyond a reasonable doubt
and in the context of circumstantial evidence, that the account given by a witness is consistent with all the proved facts to the extent that it excludes every (other) reasonable inference.

A false explanation by the Accused may not be sufficient to justify the
inference that he/she had the intention to kill the Deceased.

.

RonaldMcDonald · 12/09/2014 02:07

I thought that the judge was pretty good

I think she believed that there wasn't enough sound evidence for pre med and a decision to find in favour of that would have been overturned on appeal
I think that anyone firing four rounds into that small toilet would have done so intending to kill whomever was inside it. If he did so believing he was acting in self defence then he didn't have the intention necessary for murder

This still leaves ch and I think she will give him a decent sentence.
I think she was clear that she found the circumstances of Ms Steenkamp's killing 'peculiar' and found OP to be a poor and evasive witness
I think she has laid out her reasoning sensibly and has erred on the side of caution as anyone would want her to. She has seemed v thorough IMO

I think this should prevent appeals
Although everyone else I know seems to think OP will never serve a day of jail time

upnorthfelinefan · 12/09/2014 02:26

Thanks areyoubeingserviced

msrisotto · 12/09/2014 06:34

Thread 9 here

JillJ72 · 12/09/2014 08:07

Thanks Mrsrisotto x

LouiseBrooks · 12/09/2014 10:21

I cannnot believe that Roux just read out Uncle Arnold's address for the whole world to hear!

LouiseBrooks · 12/09/2014 10:29

Great posts Upnorth

New posts on this thread. Refresh page