Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 8

986 replies

Roussette · 15/05/2014 09:14

here is Number 7.

OP posts:
MajesticWhine · 11/09/2014 20:28

I am shocked that he has been found not guilty of murder. Especially the lesser version, dolus eventualis. Surely he could have foreseen that his actions could result in someone's death, regardless of who it was. However I know nothing of the legal system. Does anyone understand the judge's argument in this respect?

OneStepCloser · 11/09/2014 20:32

An ex Judge said on the news it's unheard of a verdict to be cut off like that as it is unfair on the accused so he was in the mind that something had happened, ie Judge M became unwell or something equally as drastic for her to adjourn so abruptly, sounds plausible I think.

I think the media are whipping up the not guilty as a headline and leaving the actual reasoning as a after bite so I guess people are thinking it's like it is here in the uk rather than seeing that CH was always the most likely outcome, hence why people are Hmm about it, maybe?

I really don't see how it could have been proven beyond doubt that he meant to kill her, even if that's what one may think.

Nerf · 11/09/2014 20:34

Is there more tomorrow? I have a day off.

LookingThroughTheFog · 11/09/2014 20:39

My feeling is that the judge has got to rule according to the law rather than to instinct. She was very clear - in cases of circumstantial evidence, if there is another explanation for the evidence, it cannot be taken as fact the other way. A point in case is the phone - it might be that Reeva took the phone to the toilet in a panic. Unfortunately, it might also be that she took it to light the way. Because there is a second possibility, we can't say she grabbed her phone and ran and claim that it must be. Under law, the fact of there being two different explanations means that the evidence of the phone being present is not something that can be counted.

Equally, has the State proved beyond all reasonable doubt that he knew it was Reeva? Only if the screams were to be believed, and the timeline doesn't match up. She could not have screamed so vigorously after the first shot - it was simply not possible. Several people think they heard the woman scream after the only woman there had been dead for several minutes. She recognises that there will be some misunderstanding with 'blind' witnesses. Unfortunately, there was the possibility that they heard Oscar - that tied in with the timeline AND it tied in with the De Merwe evidence that she heard a woman, but her husband said it was definitely a man. There was doubt as to how it sounded there.

So we can all say that the evidence stacks up to make it look really likely that he killed her, but Masipa's hands are tied by law - 'really likely when it's all stacked up together' doesn't cut it. It must be 'beyond reasonable doubt' and in this case, it isn't.

What depresses me isn't so much that she seems wrong as it is that the law, occasionally, is an ass.

The law appears to state that if you kill someone,and there was no chance for them to escape, and there were no other witnesses, you'll basically get away with it because nobody will be able to prove otherwise.

LouiseBrooks · 11/09/2014 21:05

I really don't know why people are shocked. There is reasonable doubt - only circumstantial evidence, no motive, nothing to suggest that he was violent or abusive in any of his relationships (unlike OJ who had been arrested several times for abuse but the women involved wouldn't press charges). It seems likely, according to South Africans I know, that if he'd been ordinary Mr Smith he wouldn't even have been charged with murder, just CH. I think CH is a fair verdict - he was stupid and reckless and obviously should be punished but that's a big difference between that and deliberately killing someone.

Judge Masipa has an excellent reputation and I doubt very much if she'd be swayed by his fame, despite what some people (on the wider internet, not here) are suggesting.

BeCool · 11/09/2014 21:09

I agree with you Louise - there was no "beyond reasonable doubt" evidence of murder/intent to kill Reeva.

But he did kill her, and he was certainly reckless. There was no threat, there was no intruder and he did shoot Reeva - I think CH for sure.

Sentencing will be interesting.

Will find out tomorrow.

IPityThePontipines · 11/09/2014 21:14

People (not on here) seem to be that OP being found not guilty of murder means he's been acquitted, when in fact Judge Masipa is likely to hand him a long sentence for CH + gun charges.

I don't see any reason to doubt Judge Masipa's competence, it's fair to say the the vast majority of onlookers have been very impressed with her, including everyone on these threads.

There are no winners in this case, it's a terrible, awful story. All we can hope is that justice has been done.

MajesticWhine · 11/09/2014 21:24

I am not doubting the judge in any way. I can see the point of view that premeditated murder was not proven. I just want to understand why it was not the lesser charge of murder. Was anyone watching and knows the explanation? Dolus eventualis (effectively second degree murder) as I understand it means that you could objectively forsee the possibility of causing death as a consequence of your actions.
Surely Oscar could objectively forsee that possibility, even if not Reeva, of killing whoever was in there, firing those 4 black talons into a tiny toilet cubicle. What was judge Masipa's argument for why it could not dolus eventualis? Is it simply because he didn't know it was her and he was not on trial for the murder of any person, only for Reeva?

AmIthatHot · 11/09/2014 21:32

Majestic. It's on YouTube, so once DD is in bed (and this programme about heroes of the twin towers finishes). Then I'm going to try and watch a bit

Nerf · 11/09/2014 21:40

Sky nes at half nine in the trial

temporaryusername · 11/09/2014 22:03

Majestic I'm confused by that too. The judge said that he couldn't have foreseen that death could result, she said that would have been tantamount to saying that he was faking his reaction in the aftermath. I didn't understand that because he could have been horrified that it was Reeva, but still have foreseen that the gun shots may kill whoever was in there/an intruder.

BeCool, it seems to say in that link that foreseeing the death of an intruder isn't relevant because he is only being charged and judged regarding the murder of Reeva specifically...?

I have thought throughout this that it was possible he could be found guilty concerning intent to kill whoever was in the cubicle, if they felt that intent was there. It seems a bit of a flaw in the process if - hypothetically - a person could have intent to kill but because it wasn't the person they thought, get away with it. I know I'm confused here because I've lost track of the coverage, so I am probably sounding very stupid!

NormaSwilley · 11/09/2014 22:05

It's not a case of me "having something against her" - she has made a mistake. This article explains why the judge has got it wrong.

www.iol.co.za/news/judge-masi...5#.VBHm9oFwbqD

MajesticWhine · 11/09/2014 22:06

Yep. So because he didn't forsee the death of specifically Reeva, he can't be guilty of her murder. It makes sense, if that is the law. But it sucks, IMHO.

NormaSwilley · 11/09/2014 22:07

Oh and he wasn't charged with murdering Reeva specifically. He was charged with murdering "a person, to wit Reeva Steenkamp". She was named in the charge because she happened to be the person he killed.

NormaSwilley · 11/09/2014 22:11

Pistorius stated that he did not fire a warning shot in the bathroom because he was afraid that it would ricochet off the tiles and hurt him. So WTF did he think 4 bullets would do to someone in a tiny tiled toilet!!! That proves that he (a) thought about his actions and (b) knew what the consequences would be.

I blame the prosecution for not highlighting this in the heads of argument. But the judge should have taken note of it anyway.

Nerf · 11/09/2014 22:15

He answered that when asked why he didn't fire a warning shot - I always felt he thought about it then rather then considered and rejected it at the time.
Is that his brother in the wheelchair?

temporaryusername · 11/09/2014 22:21

Crikey, reading that Norma it does sound like there could be an appeal.

What happens if, as seemed to be implied today, he is found guilty of culpable homicide....could he appeal that, at the same time the state appeals in the opposite direction that it should have been dolus eventualis?

NormaSwilley · 11/09/2014 22:30

If he gets CH and appeals and loses, his sentence could be increased, so it's a gamble.

I am really shocked at what's happened today. The judge has said he is untruthful and unreliable, yet she has preferred his word over everyone else's.

mumtosome61 · 11/09/2014 22:35

If she's made a mistake, saying she's made one and backing it up (like you now have) instead of making comments about the Steenkamp's paying for another bathroom door will probably highlight the discrepancy better.

The tone of your previous posts infers that you think Judge Masipa is unfairly biased towards OP receiving the smallest tariff.

LouiseBrooks · 11/09/2014 22:48

On Sky News tonight their legal expert (can't remember his name as I only have eyes for Llewellyn Curlewis .....) said he thought the judge was very impressive. So apparently did many people in SA until she gave out a verdict they disagreed with.

JillJ72 · 11/09/2014 22:52

Nerf yes! that's Carl.

JillJ72 · 11/09/2014 22:53

Sorry, I don't know why yes, converted to yes! Wasn't appropriate.

NormaSwilley · 11/09/2014 22:58

mumtosome61 I have stated what I think quite plainly.

homebythesea · 11/09/2014 23:45

"I am really shocked at what's happened today. The judge has said he is untruthful and unreliable, yet she has preferred his word over everyone else's."

No she hasn't preferred OP's word- the State have not made their case satisfactorily