Oscar Pistorius trial part 2

[JillJ72]

To continue from previous thread

Does anyone know what the standard of proof is in SA for criminal cases-I can't see how they could find him guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" of murdering Reeva.

I. Los think the burger evidence is solid.

It just seems like the defence are determined it will not be believed.

'Oh you heard screaming? Non screamed it's not possible with a head wound. But if there were screams then it wasn't reeva it was Oscar' and so on.

Will the defence bring people in who say there was no screaming!

Or that they specifically heard Oscar screaming?

If they say no screaming then how do they propose to explain away the screaming from Oscar?

burger is a very credible witness and I can't see any reason why she would lie.

I'm South African - grew up in Joburg although I've lived in London for the past 13 years. Not one of my friends or family there owns a gun, or ever would. Most people's attitudes towards firearms there are the same as they are here - having a firearm in your home is bloody foolish because it can so easily be used against you by an intruder. Crime there is a problem but most people take sensible precautions against it rather than arming themselves to the teeth.

I've just come back from a week there and the overwhelming opinion of everyone I talked to is that he is guilty - even if he believed there was an intruder in the bathroom, shooting someone through a locked door is not self defense and is not acceptable in any way.

Amethyst can I ask whether he would be on the stand if there was a burglar behind that door, and not Reeva?

So maybe Mrs Burger did hear the screaming, but OP didn't - due to the noise in his ears, etc

So why not just say "I didn't hear" . I don't understand that.

One of the journalists on twitter thinks that Gerrie Nel may finish on Monday. I am expecting him to provide the measurements of the fan cables to prove they weren't on, or weren't in the place they were meant to be.

I still change my mind constantly. As someone upthread said, why make up this story? The bail statement wasn't read out until, I believe, the second day of the bail hearing. Plenty of time to check things, such as cable length, etc.

I'm interested to see what the other defence witnesses say and I'm particularly keen to see the animated reconstruction.

I too am mulling things over at stupid o'clock. My head is spinning with all of this, I really need to try and switch off over the weekend.

Actually, I have a question that may be distasteful to some, so can I ask if anyone has knowledge of death, if I could PM them?

As I read somewhere, it's not a 'whodunnit' but a 'whydunnit' which is far harder to establish and perhaps more fascinating for us mere mortals.

(I appreciate the word 'fascinating' is absolutely awful given what has happened to poor Reeva and what her family are now going through with this trial, and will undoubtedly continue to go through for many years to come - whatever the outcome)

Stack - but there are witnesses who were closer then Burger who didn't hear screams. Roux mentioned them earlier this week and I imagine they will testify at some point.

Something Roux also mentioned to the defence pathologist was to ask about the impact of appetite suppressants on gastric emptying. As a model, it's possible Reeva may have used these. After she died, her manager (I think) did mention about her losing weight to further her career.

First post on this thread, long time lurker.

Someone mentioned upthread about abusers being remorseful after the deed. I have a vivid childhood memory of my stepfather crying after he'd beaten my DM. Somehow her beating became All About Him And His Pain. I'm reminded of that when OP starts vomiting and wailing in the dock.

Like others, I've been struck by OP's language and his unwillingness to accept responsibility for anything, even wishing Reeva had spoken when she was in the bathroom. It's very frustrating and I'm sure isn't helping his case.

AmI I may be able to answer, so feel free to PM.

GoshAnne that's a good point re the appetite suppressants. She did used to tweet about her weight, so that may be a credible reason for the timings not being accurate

Thanks GoshAnne I will

So there were nearer witnesses who didn't hear any screams even though the defence has told the court that OP was screaming very loudly like a woman?

Did these witnesses hear gunshots or the sound of a door being broken down?

What about the other witness who said she heard loud arguing from 2 am which annoyed her because her son was trying to sleep? Has she been discredited?

Sorry Stack, not didn't hear any screams, but only heard one person screaming and IIRC, heard it after Reeva was dead.

Roussette, absolutely he would. SA has a high crime rate but it's hardly the Wild West.

The screams I think we're before the shooting, maybe when OP threatened Reeva with the gun. I don't think she would have been able to scream during the shooting.

But, BumPotato the witness said she heard the screams during the shooting, and trailing off after the last shot

Didn't she - I'm starting to doubt myself now

MajesticWhine I would like to hear this high pitched scream of his

I'm sure he's practicing it extensively right now in case anybody asks to hear it...

Anyone else thinking that they are very glad not to be in the Judge's shoes....?? Unless either side come up with something incontrovertible over the next few days I really think it will come down to a balance of probability as opposed to a definitive answer - I don't envy Judge Masipa her task.

The information given about Ms Steenkamp speaking to him and being awake is simply to show that it was reasonable for Pistorius not to have to go to the bed, waken her and ask her to call the police.
Originally he made no mention of her being awake or speaking with her.

His moving two fans was to show that there was time after her sweetly asking if he couldn't sleep to walk silently past him and to the toilet.
He changed his story from his being on the balcony to fetch the fan because noise from the toilet cannot be heard on the balcony

He added an extra fan to the story to give her time to decide to go to the loo get up and then get down the passage to the bathroom open the window etc.

Or his bail statement was nonsense due to shock? Or Roux?

His not speaking to her in a psst, did you hear that? Fashion given that she was awake, makes no sense.

Not hitting a panic button makes no sense.

Her not saying
Oscar I'm in the toilet, or what's going on? or 'come in here' makes no sense.
He was screaming 3 meters from her and she said nothing at all.
Makes no sense

Also she knew the door was locked. She locked it. Why would she try to open it without unlocking...making the wood sound he heard before firing the gun into the door 4 times very unlikely

As he keeps lying over little things it makes it hard to believe him even when you strongly want to.

GoshAnne - but there are witnesses who were closer then Burger who didn't hear screams.

... but surely the absence of hearing something is not the negation of somebody else hearing it?

I think the original bail statement wasn't intended to be full and frank as that would've given the prosecution what they needed, and thus also, from a defence point of view, allowed no room to manoeuvre or correct or clarify if the statement had been so in depth as to be immovable. Just as recollection at the time can be one thing, with a bit more time, things can pop back up in memory, become clearer. I think (iirc) the bail statement was intended to be an outline, with the intention that he would take the stand. From what I read at the time, I don't think he had to give a bail statement, nor did he have to take the stand - he chose (or was advised) to do both?

Michelle Burger's testimony

I hadn't listened to it before. I think it's compelling evidence, because there were clear events in between the things she recounts hearing - eg. they made phone calls to security after the screaming started. The shots were heard after the (quite long) phone calls, with more screaming again at this point.

Hoping against hope that it is not going to be another OJ.
Reeva and her family don"t deserve that .