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Gove wants private and state schools to be indistinguishable!

131 replies

rollonthesummer · 03/02/2014 12:18

Roll on a class of 15; hurrah!

OP posts:
wordfactory · 04/02/2014 13:31

marzipan that is true.

But unlike China, we don't have millions of jobs in manufacturing for our unskilled. Nor do we have a growing tier of middle income jobs.

Our economy is based upon the maximum number of people being educated to a reasonably high level. That's not happening at this point.

pickledsiblings · 04/02/2014 14:21

Discipline is a massive problem in the state sector and has teachers leaving the profession in droves. I say put security cameras in classrooms and catch the buggers red-handed.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/02/2014 14:37

But why is discipline a problem? It is not necessarily the schools fault. State schools have a responsibility to educate everybody. Unlike a private school they can't just kick out those that are disruptive - every child is entitled to an education - even the wee scrotes.

And this is again where Give falls down. Making every state school like a private school is not down to exams or times in school.

It is about making sure that no child is living in poverty, and making sure that every parent is supportive and committed to their child's education. It is also about raising taxes so that the country can actually afford this world class education for all.

newgirl · 04/02/2014 14:43

Can i just throw in - small class sizes are not always a good thing. Yes I can see the appeal during infants. BUT when the children get into juniors it can be good to have a wider choice of potential friends.

Of course if teachers have more time with each pupil that is a good thing - I'd rather see more TA help than smaller classes

pickledsiblings · 04/02/2014 16:17

I think mixed ability teaching would iron out a lot of the discipline issues .

Tansie · 04/02/2014 16:34

.. one thing you cannot deny is that at least 's trying to improve standards.

But saying "I want all schools to be like private ones' is a) unrealistic and b) fatuous (I'd far rather my DC went to their outstanding comp than the next nearest indy, thanks!).

.. The main problem we have is too many people don't think getting an education is important..... The passion for education begins at home.

Indeed, which is why piling pressure on schools won't change diddly-squat. The issues they face are not educational, they're societal. This 'problem' had its roots in the Industrial Revolution and the subsequent ongoing relocation (and destruction) of our manufacturing industries (looking at you, Mrs T); and the different skilling required by our now service-based economy over our heavy engineering and manual laboured past. When I was 11 (1973) a DC could and did land a decent, respectable apprenticeship and a 'job for life' with a couple of CSEs. One's parents didn't have to 'get involved' at all. Nowadays, I doubt you'd be looked at for a City & Guilds with less than an EBacc, and frankly, this qualification measure is beyond a lot of parents who were never required to know that sort of thing; it wasn't 'for the likes of them'.

Along with the destruction of industry came mass unemployment and welfare dependency. Nothing like enough was done to help, encourage and persuade entire swathes of the country to reskill; there was all but no investment in alternative forms of employment (apart from the famous 'get on yer bike') and yes, a certain mindset did go 'Eff this, they don't care about me and mine so they can shove it' thus disengaged from what 'they' dictated, like education or the need to find employment. And of course, yes, DC from more engaged backgrounds did have to sit in the same shambolic, low-aspirational SM classes as the disenfranchised as all underwent daft 1970 educational experimentation. These DC now have DC of their own. They don't so much 'not care' about education, they don't really know where to begin. A government serious about this would start at the beginning: yes, tighten up welfare dependency but pay a living wage to workers- when you're in the situation where a semi-skilled full time worker still relies on HB to help with his state rental costs, you've got a -ahem- fatcat (Tory voting, perchance?) employer trousering the difference.

What happened to SureStart?

And yes, I recognise that the Benefits Boom of the past 20 odd years has 'encouraged' the growth of a certain group of the population who have maybe been rather fast and loose with the idea that they need never work, or try, or engage, but I bet that number is significantly smaller than the Tories want us to believe. It was just believed that paying out benefits (when we could afford them) was cheaper than paying out the Big Money in mass reskilling and encouraging investment in depressed areas. And the new benefits squeeze will reduce their numbers over the next 20 years.

State schools, unlike private schools, have by law to educate all-comers. The way a private school can 'deal with' its disruptive and yes, less intelligent is to kick them out. Exclusions are a Black Mark on a state school's books.

... I don't like all his proposals but I appreciate that he's at least trying. But sometimes it seems like he's the only one trying to turn the oil tanker heading for an iceberg - yes he's 'trying' alright! But I am dismayed at his pig-headedness, his utter inability to countenance views other than those of his yes-man brigade, to discount decades of evidence-based educational theory, proven or not; his inability to understand that one-size-cannot-fit-all (I'd chuck in here that an awful lot of private schools have the luxury of only selecting that 'one-size' to educate! Lucky them).

... Because the reality is that the Asian nations are kicking our arses. Their economies are growing at a pace we can only dream of. Their kids are studying harder, longer and graduating with better qualifications. They're taught to study hard then work hard.... come back in 20 years with that, would you? Our economy grew at a kick-arse pace, too, I recall- and look where it is now! Any idea what the suicide rate is in some of these wonder-economies? And what happens to those who, with the best will in the world, cannot 'keep up'? And, thing is, I don't take too much notice of these International League Tables because they do not compare like with like. They appear to compare the ability to memorise a log table with the ability to use one. Very different skills.

It's my belief that the woollier ability to assess and use knowledge rather than learn knowledge will forward the cause of mankind to a far greater extent! Our education system champions the former, by and large.

More Latin, anyone?

Madeyemoodysmum · 04/02/2014 21:45

In my humble opinion the only way to improve our education is cutting class size is the sensible option all round, more schools, Smaller classes, more ta staff helping if there are SN in a class.

All these crack pot schemes are drinking me crazy, longer hrs, shorter holidays, and I agree, as already said, my dcs are at an outstanding school in a affluent area but even here it's the same kids doing the reading, homework, same kids not getting any support at home and falling behind.

How's kids being at school ten hrs a day going to help these kids, they need a loving supportive parent not a teacher that's not allowed to hug them or support them as a parent should.

Workhouse anyone??

pickledsiblings · 04/02/2014 21:53

But Madeye, there is no research that shows that class size makes a difference to outcomes except very slightly for the transition years.

cazzybabs · 04/02/2014 21:59

This is also the person who says class sizes don't matter AND to cut budgets class room assistants must be made redundant ... plus the tories were the ones who sold off the playing fields and are shutting libraries...

One of the many reasons private schools are perceived to offer better education is budget .. both resources and staff...

also all those lovely trips abroad ... let's make a it a level playing field gove and you can pay for all those who have never been abroad to have a nice trip somewhere

Madeyemoodysmum · 04/02/2014 22:02

It's the ones in the middle that get left out. If classes were smaller then this would hopefully not happen so much.

I agree with pickle at disapline needs reform, teachers and heads need to have support from goverment to control classes, too many kids have no fear of authority from anyone.

I've been cheeked amany a time in school and this is a school with outstanding behavior, dread to think what goes on in a falling school.

When I was a school you would have had the slipper over your arse for that behaviour, I'm not suggesting we go back to that but kids need to know they will have consequences for bad behaviour.

rollonthesummer · 04/02/2014 22:25

there is no research that shows that class size makes a difference to outcomes

I simply don't believe that class sizes make no difference. If I had to spread my time across only 15 instead of 32 children, the impact I would have would be greater. I would spend half the time marking and assessing so would have much more time left to plan fab lessons. It is common sense.

OP posts:
flatpackhamster · 05/02/2014 12:29

rollonthesummer
I simply don't believe that class sizes make no difference. If I had to spread my time across only 15 instead of 32 children, the impact I would have would be greater. I would spend half the time marking and assessing so would have much more time left to plan fab lessons. It is common sense.

As I posted earlier, the single biggest influence on the quality of the school is the headteacher. Not funding. Not class size.

Nobody's saying it makes NO difference. They're saying that the problem is the ethos of the state system, and it is.

checkmates · 05/02/2014 12:53

BLUE it is true; there are a lot less MPs from working class backgroundsthan there were 50 years ago. Its a case of represitives who are NOT represitive. The system needs to wake up and get real

Lottiedoubtie · 05/02/2014 12:55

Where is this stat about head teachers actually from?

rollonthesummer · 05/02/2014 13:00

Where's the evidence for that, flatpackhamster?

OP posts:
flatpackhamster · 05/02/2014 13:34

Lottiedoubtie

Where is this stat about head teachers actually from?

rollonthesummer

Where's the evidence for that, flatpackhamster?

here media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/q/quality_counts_npd_analysis.pdf

It's a long document and the research does point out that it's a snapshot, not a longitudinal study. but the conclusions are pretty straightforward - it's not down to money. There is no correlation between funding and performance. The document does go in to an awful lot of details but the key summaries at the beginning of each heading are the useful bit.

flatpackhamster · 05/02/2014 13:34

I broke the link.

Lottiedoubtie · 05/02/2014 13:48

Having just read the five 'insights' I see your point re. Funding but not a head teachers influence?

Are you confusing head teachers influence with quality of education?

flatpackhamster · 05/02/2014 15:53

Sorry, I thought that was the piece of research that had it in. I have a heap of links and that looked the most likely. I'll try to track it down for you.

TheHammaconda · 05/02/2014 16:33

Was it this Flatpack?

flatpackhamster · 06/02/2014 08:28

Yes, I think that's it.

ellasdad · 06/02/2014 17:34

Mummymeister, the adjective is "govine", not "govian". ;)

immy1145 · 06/02/2014 19:43

Most private boarding schools will offer days 8.45am - 6.30pm, but it's not all lessons for example it would be normal schooling up to 4.30pm at which point a break is taken for 'tea' (snack time for teenagers), and then 'prep' where students can do extra curricular activities like music lessons, sports etc or homework groups with support from teachers.
Also you shouldn't be so quick to snub private schools, each child is different and I'm sure if the private school in your area was the best school for your child and you could afford it you would all send your child there.

Tansie · 06/02/2014 19:58

immy -yes, of course if "each child is different and I'm sure if the private school in your area was the best school for your child and you could afford it you would all send your child there"- but that's a different argument altogether.

The devil is in the detail of 'the best school for your child' as you don't need to be on MN for long to realise that many private-sending parents will brook no discussion as to whether it IS in fact 'the best school'- they're paying therefore it has to be, doesn't it?

Yes, each child is different -but- in much of the private sector, different 'styles' of education don't need to be offered as if the DC isn't 'a good fit', as deduced by the school's selection process, that DC doesn't get a place. Simples. However, the local 'bog standard comp' doesn't have that luxury; they have to take all comers.

Back to the OP- Gove wants private and state schools to be 'indistinguishable' but we all know that's bolleaux til all schools can select. That is the primary, irrefutable issue that divides one style from the other.

cory · 06/02/2014 22:38

Where is the point in him saying that he wants state education to be indistinguishable from private education when what he is actually doing is supervising a policy of cuts that mean sixth form colleges are having to scrap A-levels in core subjects?