Gove wants private and state schools to be indistinguishable!

[rollonthesummer]

Roll on a class of 15; hurrah!

Amen to that. I really do think, Amen to that.

I am in the process of choosing DD's sixth form for her. Ideally I would like her to be evaluating the choices for herself. However the reality is that I am choosing for her.

I can go private to the best school within a 50-mile radius. They are achieving 70% plus A*/A in her chosen A level subjects. The library is a thing of wonder. They have 8 tennis courts (DD is a tennis player). There are 75% of the county netball team there (DD is also a netballer). They have lots of rooms for music practice (DD plays piano). The sixth form club has its own canteen. The English teachers are amazing and inspirational and well-rounded (DD is doing both Englishes). They are geared up and supportive to help DD realise her Oxbridge ambitions. The state alternative has never ever sent a child to Oxbridge to read English.

So for me, the state alternative is just terrible by comparison. I am ashamed. I would happily pay more in taxes to make private schools unnecessary. Everyone should have brilliant facilities to help their children's development.

It deeply depresses me that our esteemed Education minister cannot see that the major, defining difference between state and private is Selection. And I don't mean grammars: even they had to adhere to the same policies as yer bog-standard comp, at least on paper, when it comes to chucking out the feckless, disruptive, uninterested, and yes, bothersome, expensive SEN. If every school in the land were allowed to select its intake, the quality of its output would rise.

Simples.

As for class size, it's my belief that a lot of academic private schools have class sizes of 25 odd; but those 25 are of very similar higher ability (academic selection); MC or 'higher' (selection by wealth); and committed (selection by very focuses parental input).

As an aside, I always 'smile' when I hear outrage that a 'good school' isn't being allowed to massively expand so that more DC can go there as I privately think 'well, the reason that school is considered to be 'good' is because it is what it is, chuck in a wider cohort of DC, i.e. selcet more using wider criteria and suddenly you might find those magic standards falling'.

I was gobsmacked by his idea that state schools should all do Common Entrance at 13. Why?

My dc are being educated privately but they did not have to do this (they took an exam at 11).

The pressure of CE is just horrible - and what difference would it make. I hate the assumption that the way Private Schools do everything is the Right Way.

Gove is talking madness. Really.

Private schools and grammar schools do better partly because of socio-economic background and partly because of selection (ie cream off the better ones, massage application to exams etc etc) and partly because of £££.

If the government had any sense, they'd tackle this holistically. Seek to drive down poverty, improve life chances, reduce inequality and improve education. Instead of having ministers each spouting off crap without any form of coherence.

I just wonder how many of the cabinet agree with him? Is he a dangerous renegade or is Cameron 100% behind him!?

Gove wants the Tory leadership. He abolutely relishes the reflected glare of the media spotlight from his radical armour as his head continually appears above the parapet. DoE is just a stepping stone to No 10 for the PM in waiting.

I've heard that before. But if it happens, I'm off. Ireland, France, independent Scotland, anywhere, I wouldn't live under Gove. His education tyranny is bad enough.

I agree with you, ohmymimi. I think that's definitely what he's aiming for. Surely you have to be vaguely popular with someone to become the leader or PM though?!

Why are people blaming Goves stupid ideas on parents not working and benefit claimants.
Hasn't he already addressed this issue with UC or have I missed something and its to be scrapped?

roll - I don't think 'self-doubt' features in the Gove vocabulary. He's right, he knows he's right, and rightness will overcome all obstacles in Gove world. Utter self-belief can be very beguiling (as Thatcher demonstrated) and there are unhappy Tories out there.

Just saw this on Twitter - so true:

of course if we compare state and independent schools on value added or 'progress', independent schools come second.

Gove is deluded.

He seems to think that if teachers just work a bit more effectively they can produce the same results as independent schools.

Let's put to one side how well resourced many private schools are. How small their class sizes. How many teachers they have etc

The big glaring issue he ignores is how much advantage private school pupils have, before we even consider school!!!!

Like Blair before him, he seems to think that this gap in advantage can be narrowed by school. We've seen that it can't.

He also forgets that private schools can expell children who refuse to work or don't make the grade! I love the way he thinks a spot of litter duty will reform the badduns as well!!

Whether you love him or hate him and it appears most people seem to hate him, one thing you cannot deny is that at least he's trying to improve standards.

You know what? I don't know either if he'll succeed. Chances are secretly even he will admit he won't succeed. The main problem we have is too many people don't think getting an education is important. And that won't change no matter how much money/resources we throw into schools. The passion for education begins at home.

Secondly there are a lot of people who seem to think the status quo is perfect. Any changes at all are resisted. Case in point is the other day when Gove suggested teachers deal with pupils using existing powers. Ie. He's not proposing yet another 'initiative' nor was he taking anything away. Yet of course he was set upon again by the educational mafia who seem to want nothing to change at all other than annual inflation busting payrises.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like all his proposals but I appreciate that he's at least trying. But sometimes it seems like he's the only one trying to turn the oil tanker heading for an iceberg.

Because the reality is that the Asian nations are kicking our arses. Their economies are growing at a pace we can only dream of. Their kids are studying harder, longer and graduating with better qualifications. They're taught to study hard then work hard. Whereas all it seems we teach our kids is to make excuses as to why we can't do something and that someone else should work hard and pay taxes to pay the benefits bill.

We all want to improve standards. Gove sees that private schools have decent results but instead of thinking-hmmm, they have great resources and smaller class sizes, that's something concrete and measurable, we'll try that. He just says let's learn from them as they're better, with no practical suggestions how?!

The problem is that the very things that make independent schools good simply cannot be exported to wholesale to the state sector.

So yes, Gove can nab a few ideas. Some good. Some decidedly odd. But really these are tinkering around the edges.

none of what gove does is about education. it is about getting people off of benefits. it is about making you pay for things that in the past were free. he saw blair get away with university fees and he thinks he can do the same with schools. more and more people paying for more and more things. hands up if you think the after school care will be free? well it wont and you wont be able to opt out either it will be means tested and you will have to pay. Niceguy2. he is not trying to improve standard one iota. buggering about with the exam system does not improve the standards. what improves standards is stretching the bright pupils and supporting the less bright AND THEIR FAMILIES. I am not resistant to change. I just think he needs to speak to some real parents for a change and get some real ideas not rely on 20 somethings who know it all and have experienced nothing as his advisors most of whom like him were private or grammar school educated.

I think Michael Gove's main priority is making a name for himself.

He wants to be next leader of the party.

And let's be honest, he's all anyone ever talks about. Three threads a day at least on MN. How many about David Cameron or Boris?

it is about making you pay for things that in the past were free.

Education is definitely NOT free. A lot of the taxes we pay go towards it.

I think that's part of the problem. When people think something is free they don't value it. Education should be seen as a privilege that we're lucky enough to get.

And I disagree that changing the exams doesn't improve standards. I think it does because it will force teachers and students to up their game.

I accept it can't be done in isolation and I agree that it's best done as part of a wholesale package. But having seen GCSE exams my daughter did I have to conclude that on the whole they are/were far too easy.

He's definitely on the spin / PR route. Sound bite stuff.

Having been to both state and private schools as a sports coach I can confirm that the biggest difference between state and private is the STANDARD OF DISCIPLINE. - both pupils and parents. Until this is addressed there will always be a huge disparity between the 2 systems. It is fact that there are disruptive children, often condoned and encouraged by the parent, yes I have been there when this has been happening, within the state system, a situation which is simply not acceptable within the private system. Until ALL parents value education and pass these values to their children the state system cannot thrive. I was totally pissed off when coaching some state pupils to have their parents telling them they could do 'what they wanted' and that 'only they, the parent, could tell their kid what to do'.
Therefore, if little Billy wants to stab some one with his javelin this is quite acceptable, and I, putting a stop to this by removing the javelin, am 'a fucking arsehole'.
What I saw happening in the classroom environment appalled me and I am only pleased that I am not a teacher, and especially not a teacher within the state system.

niceguy I accept absolutely that there must be change.

And I even agree with some of the stuff he's bringing in/endorsing ...

But I think his hyperbole is daft. Rather than these grand announcements that add up to fuck all, I'd rather see him chip away at the small stuff that will make a lasting improvement to the system.

Agree completely with niceguy.
People do not value what they do not pay for.
In the UK that includes education and the NHS.
A significant % of parents just use schools as free childcare. They have no interest in their children's education and the schools and teachers have an uphill battle just to get them to parents evening twice a year.
The NHS is used by many who refuse to make simple changes to their lifestyle (the obese, those who do no exercise, those who know they drink or smoke too much)
And why should they change?
The NHS will pick up the pieces when they need 10 lots of meds to lower their cholesterol, become type 2 diabetic, gout etc etc...
It's a deeply deeply depressing situation.

niceguy The Asian nations are not kicking our arses. They have millions of children living below the poverty line who are not educated at all. The data we aspire to relates only to those lucky enough to be educated. Our data includes every child.

Badvoc you mentioned parents using school as free childcare. do you think this situation is improved by making school days 10hours + long or is that just making it worse do you think? Niceguy shall we just make the exams really really hard and see all the kids this year get dreadful grades then? how does that raise standards? how do you think the kids getting the grades are going to feel after seeing them going up year on year on year. you have to tackle the problem at the root. not talk about it. not make grand announcements but do it. yes the exams are easier than I took, yes kids are less well behaved, yes there is a lack of respect for teachers but do you really change that by making class sizes smaller or increasing the school day or bringing in rules about time off? I just don't get it I am sorry I just don't. if we stopped paying the education part of our taxes and all had to pay for education separately what about those kids (now up to 18) whose parents wouldn't pay or couldn't pay. what then?