Jeremy Bamber - Is this the worst MoJ in British criminal history?

[HoGo1]

I watched a prog on C5 a few weeks ago re the above. I've also spent a fair bit of time researching the case (there's a mountain of docs on the 'Jeremy Bamber Forum') I have a feeling we will be hearing much more about this in the not too distant future Does anyone else think he might be innocent?

Guilty and narcissistic.

And being a paranoid szicophrenic does not mean you are more likely to kill than anyone else. You are more likely to kill yourself, but not other people. I think Jeremy has used prejudice against meantall illness to try and cast doubt on his own guilt.

Schizophrenia varies so much of course.

I do think though that her beliefs about her mother and children being "the devil" and her history of violence would not have been so easily dropped from the narrative if she had been a man.

Or maybe it was more that the prejudices and stereotypes regarding mental illness that were current at the time caused her schizophrenia to be glossed over.

Just musing really but the ideas that a) she was 'just' suffering depression and b) her motherhood is the clinching argument in her innocence do seem to crop up a lot.

Feels like a case from much earlier than mid eighties, in many ways.

There is absolutely no evidence against Sheila, and a lot of evidence that she is totally innocent.

Bollocks, he is guilty as hell. He boasted about it to his girlfriend, he has failed several lie detector tests (only publicising the one test he passed) and is a manipulative liar.

I knew him years ago and believe me he was quite capable if doing this.

Sheila Caffell was a good candidate for him to pin the blame on.

Well that's a little bit sweeping grennie.

The police, the attending doctor who certified the deaths and the coroner all believed there was evidence pointing to Sheila Caffell being responsible and they were adamant it was a case of murder/suicide for some weeks.

Which shows what a confused picture it was.

Regardless of what the truth is, the evidence is anything but clearcut.

You knew him, jakebullet? That's interesting. What sort of character was he, at that time?

From a UK MofJ website

Readers should note: It was stated at Jeremy Bamber's trial that as a consequence of what occurred on the morning of the murders and following Jeremy Bamber's own evidence, an innocent Sheila renders Jeremy Bamber guilty by default. It does not mean that he carried out the murders alone however.

1. Uncontaminated hands and nightdress completely free of any gunfire residue or gun oil. In fact no contaminants of any sort indicated that Sheila never handled the rifle let alone fired it 25 times in quick succession and reloaded its magazine at least twice.

1. Uncontaminated feet. Sheila's feet were completely clean and free of blood or any other contaminants evidencing the fact that she had been in bed when the attack took place and thereafter only walked on carpet. She could never have been downstairs in the kitchen that morning.

1. Uncut feet. Nevill Bamber was brutally attacked in the kitchen after having been shot several times in the upstairs bedroom. During the assault in the kitchen a glass lampshade was smashed leaving glass fragments all over the floor. Had Sheila taken part in that attack the soles of her feet or the soles of her slippers would have been pock marked with glass fragments. Sheila's feet were unmarked as were the soles of her slippers.

1. Only one fingerprint on the rifle evidencing the fact that Sheila did not wield it or fire it. Had she shot herself twice as alleged by some her thumbprint would have been on the trigger since she would have to had pushed it. It wasn't.

1. It is almost certain that blood and DNA belonging to Sheila was found in the sound moderator. Group 'A' human blood matching Sheila was recovered from the sound moderator in 1985. Later, advances in forensic science methods led to the recovery of DNA from inside the sound moderator which returned 17 markers out of 20 as a match to Sheila which was substantially better than the maximum coincidence rate of thirteen. Sheila could not have shot herself with the sound moderator attached nor could she have returned it to the gun cupboard after shooting herself twice in the throat.

1. Sheila was in good spirits, looking forward to the future as a family again. Her doctor and her ex husband stated that she was not capable of hurting her father or her children.

1. Two gunshots to her neck. Hardly indicative of a suicide especially when the first one would have incapacitated her. It is also noticeable that the gun and magazine were empty when found. Was that another coincidence that Sheila just happened to use the last bullet and had no others on her person?

1. No marks or injuries following a fight. Sheila was tiny compared to the 6' 2" Nevill. She could not have fought with him without sustaining some sort of injury or damage to her clothing.

1. Sheila had traces of cannabis in her system rendering her calm and docile, not violent or murderous.

10. Sheila had run out of her procyclidine which counteracts the effects of her medication haloperidol. Without this she would have been very shaky and uncoordinated (as described by various witnesses) and would not have had the control needed to get off 25 shots without missing one never mind trying to reload an awkward magazine in between time.

11. Sheila was unfamiliar with the rifle or any firearm for that matter and would have been unable to make 25 target shots.

12. If Sheila had shot herself in the throat and had remained conscious, there would have been blood in her mouth and throat with resultant blood spatter everywhere as she struggled to breathe. Her fingers would have touched the burning wound and ended up covered in blood as would have her face and neck. The blood trails running from this wound would have been smudged yet it was not. There was no secondary blood staining to her face or neck when the police initially found her. The inside of her hands and her finger tips did not have any blood staining. Sheila therefore was not conscious after the first shot and most certainly did not fire the second one.

13. Sheila's body was found on the far side of the master bedroom away from everyone. Had she committed suicide as some allege it is more than likely that she would have done so beside her children and not remote from them.

14. Perfectly manicured nails and all intact and unbroken. If Sheila had used the rifle and loaded it at least once she would have ended up with some nail damage. There was none.

I agree with most....I think number 9 is a bit shaky however.

Did he actually confess to his girlfriend? Is this the same girlfriend someone upthread knows?

He kept saying that they needed doing away with.....then the morning after he said it was done.

My only amazement is that it then took her weeks to go to the police,

I do wonder if the OP is a friend of Jeremy's?

Wasn't there something about him having cheated on the girlfriend though? I'm not sure either way but I think his supporters claim she said that as revenge.

There's something that doesn't add up about this case but it's very difficult to wade your way through the articles and just read facts

The one thing that does seem to be generally agreed upon is that the police investigation was fumbled badly. Which has led to a lot of confusion around the facts, i think.

Those who support Jeremy Bamber seem to seize on any tiny issue and twist it and hype it up. For example the fact that he passed 1 lie detector test is hyped up - and they ignore that he failed more than one.

I actually think his guilt is pretty obvious. And the fact that a number of appeals has failed, means that the courts seem to agree.

There are real miscarriages of justice out there. This isn't one of them.

One thing I will add is that somebody who kills whilst suffering acute psychosis isn't necessarily best placed to remove all forensic evidence from their person either in the commission of an act or afterwards.

However I will also say that 'Ashes to Ashes' style police behaviour (corruption and malfeasance) was rife in the 80's and forensics a very immature science.

Grennie if you believe court verdicts are in themselves proof of guilt then you cannot possibly believe that there are MoJs out there.

I don't believe court verdicts are automatically proof of guilt. I have read a lot about this case in the past, and once you look at the actual evidence, it is I think totally clear that he is guilty.

The traces of cannabis = calm and docile behaviour is irrelevant. I have experienced some very aggressive, even violent behaviour from patients with Cannabis in their systems. It doesn't have a universally pacifying effect. However some people with Schizophrenia do use it because they feel it calms them and mitigates their symptoms.

The Cannabis of the 80's was different- less of the psychoactive compounds that trigger hallucinatory and agitated behaviour although It could still cause some unpleasant negative feelings and thoughts.

Well why say this then;

"I actually think his guilt is pretty obvious. And the fact that a number of appeals has failed, means that the courts seem to agree."

You're admirably evenhanded Glass particularly as you knew a protaganist.

The courts agree with my views. Exactly what I said.

And his case has had a lot of attention. And still the facts clearly point to his guilt

Nom - Are you a friend of Jeremy's?

Procyclidine mitigates extrapyramidal symptoms including rigidity and dystonia (unwanted body movements). Being without it can cause extreme restlessness and agitation too.

The antipsychotic regimes of the 80's were extremely unpleasant. Many people were very sedated and slowed up when fully medicated.

Stabilised Schizophrenia is not synonymous with murderous actions.

Ooops hit send too soon. Was going to ask if you do have a private view?

Nom - Are you a friend of Jeremy's?