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Jeremy Bamber - Is this the worst MoJ in British criminal history?

280 replies

HoGo1 · 22/01/2014 15:41

I watched a prog on C5 a few weeks ago re the above. I've also spent a fair bit of time researching the case (there's a mountain of docs on the 'Jeremy Bamber Forum') I have a feeling we will be hearing much more about this in the not too distant future Wink Does anyone else think he might be innocent?

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edamsavestheday · 24/01/2014 23:06

I've never known what to think about this case. Certainly the initial police investigation had what can politely be called serious flaws. But that's not the same thing as Bamber being innocent.

VivaLeBeaver · 24/01/2014 23:13

The silencer wasn't found for weeks and was found by cousins/other relatives who could possibly have had a motive for putting Sheila's blood in the silencer? But where would they get the blood from? She was dead. Surely any blood on the floor, etc would have been dried up?

If she killed everyone else with a silencer on the gun and got some of her own blood in he silencer would she really have put the silencer in a cupboard before shooting herself? Yes, she'd have to take it off the gun but surely she'd just drop it on the floor!

TheFabulousIdiot · 24/01/2014 23:16

I'm Not a scientist but I don't think it matters what the blood was like, so long as they can get a big enough sample.

TheFabulousIdiot · 24/01/2014 23:18

And it could be that whenever or wherever the silencer was found, it may not have been used in the murders at all. Surely?

VivaLeBeaver · 24/01/2014 23:30

But dried blood wouldn't have stuck to the inside of a tube/silencer. So it must have been fresh splatters that went in it

A silencer must have been used as both twins were asleep when shot. One was still sucking his thumb.

HoGo1 · 25/01/2014 00:18

My reasons for thinking JB's conviction is the worst MoJ in British criminal history:

Judge's summing up/Geoffrey Rivlin's fatal mistake in his defence strategy

As we know the blood sample found in the silencer matched Sheila's blood type/group. With conflicting opinion about a remote possibility of the sample representing an intimate mix of June and NB's blood type/group.

Here's the table which shows the blood type/group of the victims along with the sample found:

                          ABO                    PGM                    EAP                     AK                    Hp

Nevill Bamber O PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
June Bamber A PGM1+ EAP BA AK2-1 Hp2-1
Daniel Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Nicholas Caffell O PGM2+1+ EAP B AK1 Hp2
Sheila Caffell A PGM1+ EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1
Blood Sample A Nil EAP BA AK1 Hp2-1

I have been unable to find anywhere in the judge's summing up or CoA doc any reference to what % of the population share blood type/groups. However my own perhaps rather crude methods and calculations indicate about 10% but the above results are certainly not exclusive to the individuals ie they are shared by many others.

As the relatives found the silencer they were asked to provide samples, which they did, to rule out contamination. I am unsure as to who exactly provided samples but RB did and his sample ie blood type/group matched the sample found in the silencer and Sheila Caffell's blood type/group.

Furthermore there is no audit trail as to who had access to and handled the silencer from manufacture to it arriving at FSS for analysis. For example at the manufacturing stage, transportation, gun shop, others that Nevill may have lent the gun/silencer to eg farm workers, friends etc

If 10% of the population share the same blood type/group then imo this should have been made clear to the jury ie spelled out in no uncertain terms. For example:

10% of the population will share the same blood type/group found in the silencer which matched SC's blood type/group and RB's blood type/group. Put another way 1 in 10 or statistically at least one member of the jury.

However this is part of the judge's summing up and imo is very misleading:

Page 12 of summing up

"Now I think that does complete the evidence of those experts, so it all comes down to this, does it not? Mr Hayward says, "Well to begin with, merely analysing the blood inside the moderator, it correponds with Sheila Caffell's.

Page 13 of summing up

"then come to Mr Fletcher's evidence: "*One of Sheila's wounds clearly was a contact wound", so that is entirely consistent with it being her blood in the end of the moderator".

The above statements imply that the evidence points to Sheila's blood being found in the moderator. This is WRONG as it was impossible to conclude then that Sheila's blood was in the moderator. It was only possible to state that the blood found in the silencer matched Sheila's blood type/group which is not exclusive to her and also matched RB's.

It appears that the possibility of contamination and the fact that it could never be proved that Sheila's blood was in the silencer was never presented to the jury?

*The judge states above "One of Sheila's wounds clearly was a contact wound". That is not what the pathologist stated. He states "There were two gunshot entry wounds which appear to have been fired at contact or near contact".

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PortofinoRevisited · 25/01/2014 00:23

One of Sheila's wounds - as quoted above. No one ever shot themselves twice in the head, without any gunshot residue etc.

WildThong · 25/01/2014 00:25

Nope. Guilty as charged. and an evil bastard

flummoxedlummox · 25/01/2014 01:04

There were some very dodgy police investigations in the past and I've no doubt some have occurred recently and will in future.

As to your query is this the worst British MoJ, then obviously not as we don't have the death penalty any more.

The one that sticks in my mind is Stefan Kiszko.

HoGo1 · 25/01/2014 01:27

Pathologist confirms first wound would have enabled Sheila to walk around for a short while. I do not believe she did walk around but could certainly have fired a second shot.

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HoGo1 · 25/01/2014 01:28

Pathologist unable to confirm murder or suicide

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VivaLeBeaver · 25/01/2014 08:06

Since the trial the blood was retested and came back with more than just a blood group. Have copied the next bit from MoJ forum. If its true then the arguments about well 10% of the population have that blood group are null and void.

The truth however as we now know it is that the DNA recovered from inside the silencer and originating from the baffles returned 17 similar markers with Sheila Caffell and it is accepted that up to 13 could be coincidental rendering it highly likely that the DNA found deep within the sound moderator did come from Sheila Caffell.

It should be noted that by using 15 or 16 markers the chances of two people having the same DNA is estimated to be around 1 in a trillion. The chances then that the DNA in the silencer just happened to derive from someone other than Sheila Caffell are so infinitesimally small as to be nigh impossible.

JakeBullet · 25/01/2014 08:19

One of the biggest reasons I didn't believe it was Sheila Caffel was the fact that Neville Bamber had evidently struggled/fought with someone in the kitchen. When you consider that he was 6ft 4in and Sheila was a recovering anorexic it is hard to see how she would not have been overpowered by him. Add to that that she had no signs of a struggle on her body as far as I know.

I have requested to join the Jeremy Bamber forum as this thread has interested me and made me want to read more about it all.

ExcuseTypos · 25/01/2014 12:07

Viva- I agree with your last post and believe that Shelia was killed by someone- her brother.

I think a lot of that forum is full of stupid ideas- one is that the police shot Sheila and tried to cover it upHmm. Well why would they try to cover up killing someone with a gun who had already killed 4 people? They wouldn't need to cover that up! It's a ludicrous suggestion.

SauceForTheGander · 25/01/2014 12:26

Yeah - I don't get that Viva

SauceForTheGander · 25/01/2014 12:26

Oops I meant Excuse!

HoGo1 · 25/01/2014 12:27

Scientists found the mother's (June Bamber) dna in the silencer and could only state that Sheila's may have been in it. However three appeal court judges found it "completely meaningless". This was due to the potential for contamination. See points 497 and 506 of the Court of Appeal hearing:

www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

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HoGo1 · 25/01/2014 12:30

Yes agreed forums etc attract a lot of oddballs with weird ideas Grin Blush

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Mignonette · 25/01/2014 13:17

Stefan Kiszko remains the worst and most tragic miscarriage of justice in my opinion. Bamber's (if he is innocent) doesn't come near it.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/01/2014 13:24

Kiszko was in prison for 16 years, Bamber so far has been for nearly 29. If Bamber was innocent I don't see how that's not worse.

Mignonette · 25/01/2014 13:39

My comment is not solely predicated upon length of time served. I am talking about so much more than that.

Read up on Kiszko- his learning disability, the crime he was accused of, the wya he would have been treated in prison and what happened to him afterwards. He had so few resources, emotionally and cognitively.

Much more tragic.

PoshPaula · 25/01/2014 13:43

Derek Bentley, Timothy Evans - both hanged for crimes they did not commit or where there was reasonable doubt.

flippinada · 25/01/2014 13:50

I agree Mignonette.

Even if (and that's an extremely big if) Bamber is innocent, it's a very, very long way from being the worst MoJ in British history. Not even close.

What about Sally Clark? Her story is absolutely heartbreaking.

Mignonette · 25/01/2014 13:50

Yes I would concede that anybody convicted when capital punishment was still law is more tragic. i should have clarified that I was referring to people convicted since its abolition.

ExcuseTypos · 25/01/2014 13:57

Sally Clark's story is indeed heart breaking.

Being falsely accused of killing anyone is horrific, but to be falsely accused of killing your own baby. Beyond horrific.