Jeremy Bamber - Is this the worst MoJ in British criminal history?

[HoGo1]

I watched a prog on C5 a few weeks ago re the above. I've also spent a fair bit of time researching the case (there's a mountain of docs on the 'Jeremy Bamber Forum') I have a feeling we will be hearing much more about this in the not too distant future Does anyone else think he might be innocent?

yay...you are back

And yet, of the people who have seen and/or heard all the evidence, the original jury, two sets of very experienced Appeal Court judges, various lawyers and forensic experts have all decided that there is more than a scintilla of evidence to support the conviction. But you, as a person who has read a lot of very one-sided stuff on the internet, know better. Right.

Yes I absolutely believe Jeremy Bamber is the victim of the worst Miscarriage of Justice in modern British Criminal history.

I am not afraid to go against prevailing orthodoxy.

The information that leads me to believe Jeremy Bamber is the victim of a MoJ is entirely my own.

Remind me how many of the great and the good called it wrong across the globe over the financial crisis:

Central bankers
Politicians
Regulators
Banks' senior managers
Accountants
Auditors
Credit rating agencies
Fund managers
Compliance personnel

This was based on the concept (wrongful belief) that credit risk could be managed/mitigated by complex mathematical modelling. Similar to the belief that Sheila Caffell's blood was in the silencer from backspatter or blowback.

But you, as a person knows I have read a lot of very one-sided stuff on the internet. Right

yay...you are back

Awwww thanks JakeBullet

I have to do some REAL work now. I'll try to get back later. That's of course assuming members are not in shock and awe at my posts and lost for words

The information that leads me to believe Jeremy Bamber is the victim of a MoJ is entirely my own.

Really? And how do you have this privileged access to information which even the court doesn't apparently have? I assume you must have, given that you have said very confidently that there is not one single scintilla of evidence against Jeremy Bamber.

Sorry, the undoubted fact that people are not infallible does not lead to the conclusion that every single person who has looked at and heard the evidence and arguments was wrong to decide that Bamber was guilty. That is what is known as a complete logic fail.

Really? And how do you have this privileged access to information which even the court doesn't apparently have? I assume you must have, given that you have said very confidently that there is not one single scintilla of evidence against Jeremy Bamber.

I do not have access to any information that is not in the public domain. I just connected some dots with info not previously looked at in connection with the case. Does not necessarily mean that I am right or that it is relevant to the case but it is this information that led me to my conclusion and beliefs about the case. Are you able to provide any evidence that proves beyond doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family?

Sorry, the undoubted fact that people are not infallible does not lead to the conclusion that every single person who has looked at and heard the evidence and arguments was wrong to decide that Bamber was guilty. That is what is known as a complete logic fail.

Logic fail or flawed group thinking/herd mentality in the absence of any firm evidence? May I ask how you think long running MoJ's like the Stefan Kiszko case happen? Or when the former Chairman of the FSA , Lord Turner, stated:

“I think we – as the authorities, central banks, regulators, those involved today – are the inheritors of a 50-year-long, large intellectual and policy mistake,” what is meant by this if not complete logic fail?

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9934819/Adair-Turner-Bankers-no-longer-in-denial.html

I am still reading through the available documents. ...some are quite shocking.

I still lean towards guilty BUT there are issues I dont like such as the remaining evidence being destroyed etc. A pity as it might answer questions definitively.

I still do not think Sheila could have done all those things qnd remained immaculate (or as clean as she was), There have been several high profile cases of murder/suicide by parents, I don't know of a single case though where the perpetrator showered and changed before taking his or her own life. Sheila was just too clean....also the initial wound woukd have more or less incapacitated her amd certainlu caused a drainage of blood down her clothes. The fact she is so clean tells me that she is unlikely to have moved anywhere in an upright position after the initial gunshot wound.

No.

You just need to look at the very detailled account of his girlfriend, who he phoned directly after the killings.

Are you able to provide any evidence that proves beyond doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family?

I don't have to. The prosecution has already provided evidence that satisfied a jury beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family, and in two subsequent appeal hearing his lawyers, with access to all the documents you have seen, failed to demonstrate that there was anything unsafe about his conviction.

Which account? The one she gave to the police the day after the murders where she makes no reference to Bamber's involvement. Or the one she gives a month later when he dumps her and she makes all sorts of claims about Bamber planning the murders for over a year. In the intervening period between the two statements she identifies the five victims at the morgue, including the two little boys she read a bedtime story to and put to bed the Saturday prior to the tragedy, and shares Bamber's life and bed.

He doesn't deny the phone call, just the content.

There were flatmate witnesses her end of the call.

She is a criminal too and shouldn't have been cut the deal the police did.

I don't have to. The prosecution has already provided evidence that satisfied a jury beyond reasonable doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family, and in two subsequent appeal hearing his lawyers, with access to all the documents you have seen, failed to demonstrate that there was anything unsafe about his conviction

The above does not mean that Jeremy Bamber's conviction is not the worst MoJ in modern British criminal history?

Two jurors were not convinced. The CCRC obviously had their doubts hence the referral to the CoA. Only 2.97% of applications submitted to CCRC have been referred to CoA. All of this will just make the case even more sensational when the conviction is quashed in the not too distant future.

Any ideas about why so much information is held under pii? Or why Essex Police destroyed many exhibits when they were told not to do so?

JakeBullet

Very sad example of a father killing his wife and their two sons. He then spent some 24 hours at the family home, including washing his car, before committing suicide.

Apparently he wasn't having an affair he had become depressed about a miscarriage his wife suffered.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2072921/Pudsey-family-murder-suicide-Was-killer-father-Richard-Smith-having-affair.html

If Sheila was responsible I think she must have showered and changed her clothes. Then committed suicide in the position she was found in.

Grateful if anyone can explain why my links don't work?

Hi HoGo...just put around your links....then they should work.

....awfully sad case.

Presuming nobody else had a motive to want the family dead though.

I am addicted to the for and against forums now......reading, re-reading etc.

Hi HoGo...just put around your links....then they should work

Many thanks. I should have read the instructions below properly. Makes me wonder what else I might be missing/not reading properly

HoGo, I think we have already established that, if this were a miscarriage of justice (in my book MoJ is definitely Ministry of Justice and nothing else), it still isn't the worst miscarriage of justice in modern history.

I answered your direct question about whether I could produce proof beyond doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family. That answer being inconvenient to you, you have tried to turn the question into a different one.

Bamber's supporters have been saying for years that the conviction was about to be quashed. Last time round, his barrister started out by making very confident assertions about his case which he had to abandon before the end of his arguments. Therefore I'm not going to hold my breath about the likelihood of the conviction being quashed any time soon.

Interesting thread.

This might have been covered and I missed it, but do the phone records support JB's claim that his father called him that night?

Hi Hettie, unfortunately not, the technology presumably was not available at that time for household phones.

Its one of the things Jeremy said during a police interview...that they could check the phone but they told him no they couldn't and his response came across as one of surprise. I lean towards the guilty verdict and his response in that interview suggested to me that he had planned for there to be proof of a call from White House Farm...and was surprised when he was told that they could not confirm/deny a call made at that time.....but of course I could be wrong.

I don't think that phone records back then were as efficient as in modern day.....so there's no proof afaik about where the phone calls were made from.

Phone calls to the police were recorded but the tapes were destroyed and never heard as evidence in court. Which is odd as you'd think it would be a really crucial bit of evidence. Did Jeremy make both calls to the police, pretending to be his dad in the first one? Or was it really his dad which would support Jeremy's claim of innocence.

Depending on which view you read in other forums....

Neville Bamber made the call as Jeremy said he did....

or

Jeremy made the call to his home phone from White House Farm nd then simply cancelled the call when he got home. After around 2 mins the line would have cleared and he could then have phoned.....his girlfriend/the police...again depending upon whicch view you read.

The call ID's on the forms I have seen are the same informant ID...ie Jeremy Bamber which seems to suggest that JB phoned the police and the local station then phoned it through to a more central station.....with info that there was an incident at "White House Farm, daughter gone beserk."..based upon JB's info to the local station.

HoGo, I think we have already established that, if this were a miscarriage of justice (in my book MoJ is definitely Ministry of Justice and nothing else), it still isn't the worst miscarriage of justice in modern history.

Lets not split hairs over acronyms. MoJ = Ministry of Justice and Miscarriage of Justice. FSA is Financial Services Authority and Food Standards Agency. How would you define 'worst' in terms of MoJ? I base it on length of sentence served to date.

I answered your direct question about whether I could produce proof beyond doubt that Jeremy Bamber murdered his family. That answer being inconvenient to you, you have tried to turn the question into a different one

You did not even attempt to provide any evidence. You are happy to let a man's liberty rest on ten jurors and a handful of appeal court judges. Not good enough when the soc was treated as 4 murders/1 suicide for a month and much 'evidence' destroyed. Where much of the info still remains under pii and many exhibits destroyed by the police when they were told not to do so.

Bamber's supporters have been saying for years that the conviction was about to be quashed. Last time round, his barrister started out by making very confident assertions about his case which he had to abandon before the end of his arguments. Therefore I'm not going to hold my breath about the likelihood of the conviction being quashed any time soon

I would not describe myself as a 'Bamber supporter' in that I am not actively involved. No Nennypops don't you go holding your breath I am told the wheels of justice grind slowly BUT exceedingly fine

Everyone goes on about the fact that Sheila was so clean. Jeremy didn't have a mark on his body (Julie Mugford's words) and the sniffer dog at the SOC took no notice of Jeremy. It's quite ludicrous that he would murder 5 members of his family just for money. To read books is to judge this case on someone else's opinion. He was not a playboy as commonly depicted but someone who grew to love the farm life. There was no fight in the kitchen, the sugar on the floor and broken glass was caused by the TFU as they stormed through the kitchen...this they acknowledge. ACC Peter Simpson issued a statement to the press saying that a sound moderator had been removed from WHF on the day of the tragedy...apart from David and Robert Boutflour's also seized by the police...so you see that there were 4 Sound moderators taken by the police...again backed up by police statements. These facts are not opinions or make believe but undisputable facts. These are only a very small amount of facts documented by the police...too many to mention. The cover up is full of holes and with the new evidence recently uncovered I'm very confident that when the submission is complete then it'll result in Jeremy's release.

How would you define 'worst' in terms of MoJ? I base it on length of sentence served to date.

I base it on things like, for instance, people who were hanged.

You are happy to let a man's liberty rest on ten jurors and a handful of appeal court judges.

Well, yes. It's called the British justice system, and it's the way the courts operate all day every day. Do you assume that everyone in prison must be wrongly convicted because they have been convicted by "only" 12 jurors, or indeed "only" one judge?

And it's not good enough to dismiss those people as if they were tossing a coin. They are the ones who have seen all the evidence (not just what Bamber's supporters choose to put up on his website) and actually saw and heard the witnesses give evidence, and who have heard the arguments of counsel instructed on his behalf who I am quite sure put his case - including the issues you refer to - as forcefully as possible. No-one is saying that the system is infallible, but they have a better chance of knowing the truth than someone reading documents on a selective website.