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Original poster

Jeremy Bamber - Is this the worst MoJ in British criminal history?

280 replies

HoGo1 · 22/01/2014 15:41

I watched a prog on C5 a few weeks ago re the above. I've also spent a fair bit of time researching the case (there's a mountain of docs on the 'Jeremy Bamber Forum') I have a feeling we will be hearing much more about this in the not too distant future Wink Does anyone else think he might be innocent?

OP posts:
Mignonette · 25/01/2014 13:59
Sad
WhamBamThankYouMam · 25/01/2014 14:03

I agree mignonette, I don't think it even compares to what Kisko went through.

Original poster
HoGo1 · 25/01/2014 14:08

Good points made about the definition of "worst MoJ". I guess I was thinking about duration in terms of numbers of years spent incarcerated if innocent. I think I shall rephrase "worst MoJ in recent times" so it reflects those that lost their lives through capital punishment and were subsequently found to be innocent. Thanks for highlighting.

In terms of years spent incarcerated Stephen Downing was the longest at circa 27 years but Bamber has now overtaken that.

I agree Stefan Kiszko's MoJ is heartbreaking and he died shortly after his release so too his mother.

Bamber though was adopted ie his life took an unnatural course. His birth parents went on to marry each other. He has two full birth siblings. One a professional artist. The other a founding director of a ship broking company. How different their lives ie three full birth siblings. If Bamber is innocent he also lost his entire immediate adoptive family to murder. He was almost murdered by an inmate. His probation officer contacted his birth parents to ask if they would help with his appeal and they said they didn't want to know. How much sadder does it get IF he's innocent?

OP posts:
Greythorne · 25/01/2014 14:17

I agree Stefan kisko is a worse miscarriage of justice, although it's not a competition.

RIP Stefan

And no, I'm not a friend if his.

PoshPaula · 25/01/2014 15:11

I agree Sally Clark suffered terribly. It's impossible to imagine what that woman went through (and the experience caused her death, indirectly).

Original poster
HoGo1 · 25/01/2014 15:19

Yes Prof Roy Meadows had a lot to answer for with his misleading statistics into cot death.

OP posts:
Mignonette · 25/01/2014 16:32

Interesting and mind blowing thing to ponder -

What is worse in your eyes- being falsely imprisoned or a guilty party going free?

That is just a general question to all. I just don't know what to think about that one.

PoshPaula · 25/01/2014 20:03

The two go hand in hand. It's impossible to say which is worse. When considering the guilty party going free, there is also the consideration that others are then put at risk - the person is or has been a danger to the public.

LauraBridges · 25/01/2014 20:27

Whether he's guilty or not I doubt society is very well served by keeping him in anyway. He's certainly been in there a very long time.

TunipTheUnconquerable · 25/01/2014 20:34

I think in this case the consequences for the family if he was guilty but the conviction found to be unsafe, would be awful.
Given the nature of the crimes, and the fact that the family were involved in finding the evidence that had him convicted, and that there are property ownership issues, it would be a living nightmare for them if he was released.

AngelaDaviesHair · 25/01/2014 20:47

I agree with Mignonette about Stefan Kiszko. I also always remember Engin Raghip. He was one of the three people originally charged with PC Blakelock's murder. He too had a lerning disability. The way he was terrified and coerced into confessing over a period of days is truly Kafkaesque and awful.

Trouble is these cases do bring out the Plastic Poirots with their encyclopaedic grasp of the facts (however peripherally relevant) and minimal judgment. Bamber has never been able to convince professional investigators or adjudicators, whether the Court of Appeal or CCRC or anyone else, that he was wrongly convicted.

Mignonette · 25/01/2014 22:40

That's awful Angela. I remember the old Stoke Newington Police Station and the horrendous racist, disablist and sexist attitudes and actions of those officers. The way they treated mentally unwell people in detention.....Sad

Mignonette · 25/01/2014 22:42

And their treatment of black people w/ mentall illness including using restraint techniques that are now known to be particularly dangerous to people of Afro Caribbean descent. They left one detained man to die on the floor after restraining him.

edamsavestheday · 25/01/2014 22:53

Still happening today. Look at that poor man killed by G4S on a deportation flight a year or so back. AFAIK no one has been prosecuted for smothering the poor man to death.

Mignonette · 25/01/2014 23:04

Yes that was terrible. And the reports of abusive treatment of labouring women.

edamsavestheday · 26/01/2014 12:40

and the baby denied formula for a whole weekend at Yarl's Wood - I wrote to my MP about that one (G4S or whoever runs it says it was OK because they gave the baby rehydration stuff, FFS).

And the latest reports of people dying in chains who were detained at a deportation facility in Birmingham. And a man in his 80s with Alzheimer's who was shackled during a hospital visit.

Contemptible, all of it. WTF are the bastards who do this thinking? Do they get a kick out of it? (And I don't just mean the security people, I mean their fucking bosses as well, all the way up to the boardroom. AND the shareholders. Who probably include those institutions that manage our pension funds.)

Mignonette · 26/01/2014 13:16

Yes the man with Alzheimers is the case that appalled me too. Such cruelty and inhumanity. How DO they sleep at night?

edamsavestheday · 26/01/2014 13:47

I have no idea. Except not giving a fuck.

SauceForTheGander · 26/01/2014 13:53

How are G4S even still getting contracts and running things.

That poor man who'd come to track down his long lost DD. where the fuck is basic kindness and humanity?

Mignonette · 26/01/2014 13:57

As the NHS is broken up and sold off piece meal to companies like Serco you are going to see more of this attitude and callousness not less.

God help us all.

SauceForTheGander · 26/01/2014 14:00

So depressing

Suzietwo · 27/01/2014 22:02

Another local who is pretty sure he done it

JakeBullet · 27/01/2014 22:12

I find from what I have read that Julie Mugford is pretty credible witness once you get beyond the incredulity that she did not act sooner with what JB had allegedly said and done.

I think the initial police investigation was bungled as police thought they were dealing with murders and a suicide. Items were moved etc. which all muddies the waters now.

There is a lot of accusation that Julie Mugford was a scorned woman taking revenge. However, she has maintained silence ever since apart from reiterating that she believes JB to be guilty. Certainly she could have sold her story many times over but didn't. ..she seems simply to have moved on and put a terrible event behind her.

Fact is that I believe JB has convinced himself of his innocence. How could you want to acknowledge that you were responsible for the murder of two little boys....as well as their mother and grandparents.

Catkinsthecatinthehat · 28/01/2014 07:21

I find from what I have read that Julie Mugford is pretty credible witness once you get beyond the incredulity that she did not act sooner with what JB had allegedly said and done.

One thing that struck me from the Guardian article cited above was that Julie Mugford implicated another man as well as Bamber for the murder, but it was found he had a cast-iron alibi. The Guardian also ran a story in 2012 as they'd received documents showing that charges of burglary, cheque fraud and drug smuggling against her were dropped ahead of her giving evidence.

I'm very on the fence as to whether JB did it, but there are real issues about the credibility of Mugford.

JakeBullet · 28/01/2014 08:57

She implicated the other man as JB told her he had arranged a hitman and gave her that name.

I think she believed that statement from him. When it seemed like their relationship was over she might have had good reason to fear that she could be next.....knew too much etc.

I guess she got a lawyer who arranged a deal. ....that she would get immunity in exchange for her evidence, rightly or wrongly that was given.

If JB is innocent (and it would be a terrible MOJ if he is) then it would mean that not just Julie Mugford lied but so did many others. ...AND maintained those lies ever since.

WHY would somebody lie about something so serious as this?

I believe that Julie Mugford told the truth and still believes it to be the truth.

Obviously JB coukd just have been a silly and immature young man making stupid statements about killing his family. He might well have been the arrogant young man he was painted as.....it doesn't make him a killer. But if he did make all those statements.....and then suddenly the family all end up dead, well you'd have to be mad not to have believed he did all he said he was going to.

You just would not lie about that.

Then again...even at that young age when she was equally as immature as JB I find it amazing that she did not speak straight to the police when the family were murdered. I know I would have done.