ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

OK, glad that's cleared up.

I feel extremely offended that neither you hub2dee nor you twiglett have seen fit to respond to my post.

won't stop me from being totally friendly on other threads (of course)

and caligula, that felt like a reproof without any explicit statement as such.

if you want to couch being against israels actions atm as intransigence or lacking in empathy or lacking in student of politics stature i have to disagree.

it is possible to be fearful but fair you know. lots of good and reasoned israelis are against their governments' policies at this time, let alone jews around the world.

h2d, I accept that you are trying to be fair. Fear of the Holocaust was not specifically in the article, but that fear is what has been expressed even on this thread. There is mention of pushing the Jews into the Mediterranean in this thread.

Jewish civilians, like Christians & Muslims, are present in the ME, and there is no reason to exclude them from a peaceful life. I don't like the word "them" for that implies an otherness that I don't feel. We are all human, and we should seek for everyone what we seek for ourselves.

What causes the Israelis to be insecure? We are told that it is the attacks by the Arabs and their rejection of the Jewish sate. Why do the Arabs attack them? Why don't the Arabs make peace? What lisa said was that the Muslims hate Jews and the hatred was in the Quran. First it wasn't about Muslims. There are Christian Arabs too.

Secondly there isn't a hate of the Jews in the Quran. There is sadness at the history. The Jews are invited to refer to their own sources for the history. The Muslims are told to learn from the history of those who have passed before them. I know my Quran. I said the quote was from a Hadith which refers to the end-times, and that all the three Abrahamic religions see the end-times when the rest of mankind will either convert or (in the case of Judaism, accept its suzerainty over others), and it has not been interpreted as a justification to hate the Jews. LL has not responded to that, instead she has in a later post again repeated her accusation of hatred.

Here are two links on Zionist terrorist groups:

Irgun

Stern gang

While the Palestinians are accused of being Nazi sympathisers, the offer of the Stern Gang for an alliance with the Nazis is forgotten:

Stern-Nazi collaboration

That is just for a historical perspective. It also shows the aims of those who founded and guided the state of Israel. It is important to be clear about the history, otherwise you do not get to understand and try to arrive at a solution that is lasting.

What causes the anger against Israel? There is no rage against the Jews, although some try to cloud the issue by equating Israel and Zionism with the Jews.

Let us look at history once again, and perceptions: The Crusades established Christian Kingdoms in the ME, but these were defeated, and the invading armies withdrew. Some Christians from the West remained, particularly in what is Lebanon, and they have survived as autonomous communities.

Come the WWI, and the Allies take Jerusalem. In fact they take over much of the Muslim lands. And if you read the accounts of the conquerors, you hear the Crusader speaking. The French were given a mandate in the Levant, and what was their legacy? A constitution for Lebanon that keeps power away from the majority, and gives a very disproportionate weight to the Christians.

What is Israel then to the Arabs? Yet another Crusader state. Yet another state that is artificially propped up by the West (mostly the US these days) and that denies the native population many of its rights.

Look at the partition map. The entire coast of Palestine was awarded to Israel. Why is that?

A fair distribution of land and resources to the existing population would have given reason for the Palestinians to start building their state, but the exclusion of a coast for the Palestinian state, the ethnic cleansing, the wars of annexation, the discrimination against Arabs, and the overwhelmingly blind support for Israel have convinced the Muslims that this is yet another Crusade. And it has convinced the Arabs that this is a racist phenomenon.

As I mentioned earlier, a Leeds man who is now a US citizen, has come upon a solution that has merit. The borders he draws are still lopsided in favour of Israel, but at least he has understood that the denial of a coast to the Palestinians is a gross injustice:

operation shoveover

I am still waiting for you to answer my question, Mud. Are you really so gutless that you have to accuse people of racism by making side-swipes?

Which poster were you referring to as a racist?

Don't be so cowardly. If you want to use terms like racist, have some integrity and say what you mean.

I am not around for most of the day so won't be able to post till later when I'll address some of the points raised.

I'll acknowledge your frustrations though soph as I know it's not a nice feeling to be stewing on... tbh don't feel it's my job to go through this thread identifying lots of bits which I found upsetting or wanted to challenge (or would have preferred to read better-worded !). A number of issues / phrases etc. have already been highlighted by other posters too, so sorry if you're feeling "extremely offended" but I imagine it's highly mutual. Some posts have been deleted, perhaps for failing MN acceptable use policy ? And as lisalisa mentioned a very significant number of MNers wrote to her to offer 'off-thread' support, so twig and I are doubtless not alone in our sentiment.

Sophable I didn't mean to reprove anyone. I just came back to the thread and found veiled and unveiled accusations of anti-semitism, racism etc., deleted posts, accusations of people accusing other people of anti-semitism in order to stifle debate, and it looked like the thread was simply going to end up in a free for all of pointless insults, very bad feeling and possible deletion. To say nothing of mumsnetters leaving because of it - last time we had one of these threads we lost Aloha (and what a sad loss that is, I still feel really pissed off about that bloody thread) and I would just hate to lose other people in the same pointless way, just because it's so easy to forget (or not realise) where where other people are coming from when they post (on both sides of the debate). But it wasn't meant to be a reproof to anyone, sorry if it sounded like one.

Sophable I quote:
"lots of good and reasoned Israelis are against their governments' policies at this time, let alone Jews around the world"

Goodness, this is so blatantly obvious as to be totally irrelevant !!

I have said it numerous times in my own posts, re. liberal Jews I have personally known, prominent Jewish academics, ordinary Jews I have known in person, etc.

It's like saying "lots of good and reasoned [British people] are against their government's policies at this time, let alone [Christians] around the world"

So ? Does this fact justify what we are doing in Iraq, Afghanistan, or allowing to be done in Lebanon ?

Please can you find a quote either from my posts or any one else on this thread where it was stated that ALL Israelis or All Jews support Israel's actions ?

Yes and we all know Israel is composed of different religious and ethnic groups, I have acknowledged as such as I have personally known people from Israel who are European Jews, Arab Jews, Arab Muslims, Arab Christians and non-Arabs, etc. No one here has been ignorant enough to suggest that everyone of these people support Israel.

In fact do you know of ANY country in the world that is not composed of different ethnic or religious groups ? Not even Japan, which is often quoted as racially homogeneous, is free of other ethnic and religious groups. There are millions of immigrants living in Japan plus many Japanese are in fact decendants of Koreans, Chineses, etc.

The point I have raised before and no one seems to wish to address, is WHY don't you say out loud and clear for everyone to hear that the actions against Lebanon are grossly disproportionate or that Israel's policy in the occupied territories is grossly unjust or that it's treatment of indigenous Arabs is inhuman ?

You do not need an international court to arbitrate on these violations. No international court will put Israel on trial, not as long as the US supports Israel, both morally and financially.

According to prominent international lawyers and human rights activists and INDEPENDENT human rights orgs. (the Amnesty and Human Rights Watch reports are available for everyone to read if they care to) Israel continues to breach every single rule in the book. These organisations are independent and not funded by Hamas/Hizbollah - they are non-profit, non-aligned orgs. who highlight violations of human rights throughout the world, not just vis a vis Israel. Indeed they even highlight violations committed by PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, etc. No one is trying to hide violations of the latter under the rug.

What is amazing is that a so-called democracy, with free elections and the backing of millions of Israeli's can behave the way it does AND get away with it.

The inability to admit to or even hint at the Israeli Government's brutality is the inability to admit any wrong-doing unless the wrong-doing eminates from a non-Israeli organisation.

It shows an emotional, verging on the hysterical, attachment to the State of Israel.

mimoyello, i'm confused to the point of insanity here....i've been arguing vociferously (some would say too vociferously) on this thread that the israeli governments' actions are completely disproportionate and that their policy in the lebanon indefensible.

do you actually read anyone's posts? this last one from you makes me wonder.

hub and caligula, points taken, i was a bottle of wine worse for wear when i posted that rant yesterday and no it's not your responsibility to find the posts.

I'm (yes even me) getting weary of this. Your reminder of Aloha leaving caligular made me realise that in some ways there is a pointlessness to this whole thing. It upsets me that anyone thinks that israeli action in lebanon is in anyway proportionate or defensible, but so what? I'm not being bombed to shit.

i don't even know what was said in the deleted posts so i don't know if there has been anti-semitism on this thread.

I hope that however people view my posts it is clear that I reserve my greatest condemnation for the US and UK governments policies in going against the rest of the world and sanctioning the action taken against the lebanese people in the name of the fight against terrorism. Sorry Expat and Uwila I know that will wind you up. but just as happened under the clinton administration, when the US takes a fairer stance towards israel, acknowledging her as a major ally, whilst condemning illegal actions on her part, then it all looks as if everyone could get round a table and talk in the middle east (as they did).

Bush and Blair are the real villains of this piece imo.

Sophable - the first bit of my post was directed at YOU. The rest wasn't.

Well, I'm off to the demo today. Probably pretty pointless too, but old habits die hard.

good for you caligula.

however pointless it was the iraq war demo was fantastic and i'm really glad dh and i (and ds as a bump) went.

Well, we just went to the rally. The usual suspects on the platform - Benn, Galloway, Kent, Abbott, German et al. Out of about 20 speakers there were only a few I could wholeheartedly applaud, notably Bruce Kent. Many of the others were just a bit too pro-Hezbollah for my taste, even if I agreed with them about Blair, Bush and Israeli 'overkill'.
I'd been looking forward to going and making myself heard, but by this morning I didn't feel much conviction. WIth the Stop the War march we were actually trying to divert the govt from a course of action. Today it didn't feel so useful, because although Blair has been criminally slow to react, the fact is that everyone does finally seem to working towards a ceasefire.

I was with a bunch of idiots who called to mind that scene in the Life of Brian with all the splinter groups. They spent most of the time trying to compete with the main slogans and making up their own complex ones which just didn't have the requisite catchiness. ("what do want? - victory for a secular Palestine - when do we want it - now".) One of them told me that there was no point calling for an immediate ceasefire, as what he wanted was final victory, a secular Palestine where everyone could live in secular non-religious peace.

Give me strength. Still at least it was exercise I suppose.

I know how you feel Caligula. My DP can't help glancing gleefully at me to check my purse-lipped reaction when there's some really radical view expressed. Or when there's chanting - he knows it makes Mrs ModerateAndSelf-Restrained squirm.

I kept on trying to spot my policman friend who I think might have been on duty - he was trying to get overtime for today - I would have loved to chant then spot him and wave enthusiastically ("how are you? - how's the baby? hey, hey, USA, how many kids have you killed today? - and the house move? Have you got your kitchen in yet?")

I have a question and would really like to know what people thinkIf,for instance,Israel clears Hezbollah out of the way in order for USA to attack Iran/Syria and rid them of nuclear weapons[so they don't have Hezbollah fighting with them]. Do you think the USA would use nuclear weapons?
Also I live in The Republic of Ireland and am concerned about the support USA are getting fromhere in terms of them using Shannon airport to refuel and possibly sending soldiers over[for UN?].hOWEVER THERE IS A FAIR BIT OF aMERICAN INVESTMENT IN iRELAND AND I WONDER IF THE GOVERNMENT FEELS IT HAS TO KEEP IN WITH THE usa OR THEY COULD PULL THEIR COMPANIES OUT AND THERE WOULD BE HUGE JOB LOSES.wHAT WOULD HAPPEN.I WONDER IF the Irish gov said'we either have to side with USA for economic reasons or we can say no thanks and lose jobs and have to think of something else we can do@
I expect this last sounds naive to some of you BUT I would appreciate your inputSorry about Caps! .

Couldn't post yesterday. If I may, I'll accept your offer, Soph, not to trawl through the thread; I doubt it will do much to progress things forward. Maybe instead we can have a good ole banter at the next big meet up ?

pd - Glad you accept I am trying to be fair. I took issue with a phrase you used "for Israel the justification is that Jews suffered a Holcaust." I explained why I thought that was not a terribly helpful post, and also pointed out that the article you linked to in support of this statement made no such claim at all. I find it a real pity you choose not to moderate or correct your statement. (In a spirit of fairness, and all that )...

I accept, btw, that the holocaust might inform Israel's behaviour - but IMHO it should inform many states' and many individuals' behvaiour (it was a spectacularly tragic event after all), but that Israel uses this as its sole justification ??? Purlease.

Further, I find it odd that at times you appeal for empathy with the Palestinian struggle, for a better understanding of Islam and an appreciation of its shared historical roots with Judaism, contemplating (challenging ?) "What causes the Israelis to be insecure? We are told that it is the attacks by the Arabs and their rejection of the Jewish sate." Yet at others you reveal other sentiments: "Muslims are NOT to hate Jews or Christians... They hate Zionism and Israel. " (a post of yours last December ).

With reference to your Irgun and Stern gang links: I have already explained I am not historically minded, so I am 'learning on the fly' so to speak, and it makes for interesting reading ! But from what I can tell the Stern gang were not Nazi sympathisers as you imply (as in they agreed with Jewish persecution and mass murder) but rather they sought to further their political agenda by encouraging immigration into Palestine benefitting from the German desire to rid Europe of Jews (still deffo dubious though !).

Regardless of the nuances, your wiki link suggests they "never had over a hundred members," so in the same way that previous discussion on this thread highlighted minority (outlandish ?) sects (such as the Nuterei Karta sect), I'm not sure how exploring their history might help us work towards a cessation of hostilities today... Reading the wiki entry for Irgun, the text suggests the Jewish Agency "routinely condemned... Irgun operations as terrorist and branded it an illegal organization" (The paragraph on 'Irgun legay is particularly interesting). No doubt one could find and post extensive, unsettling and unsavoury manifestoes etc. from modern terrorist groups such as Hamas or the PLO, were one trying to inform both sides of the debate.

hi doobydoo

First of all, Israel will not be able to clear out Hizbullah. It may weaken it militarily in the short run, but the Hizbullah support base has expanded as a result of this war. Clearing it out is no longer a military/political outcome. Israel now relies on a UN force to do policing, but intendes to destroy as much as it can of the Lebanese infrastucture.

Second, the US does appear to be getting ready for the use of small so-called bunker-buster nuclar weapons. It has already poisoned the environment in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, and Iraq with depleted Uranium, and here has been no apology for the disastrous effects on civilians. Is it any surprise that the US population, by and large, has not considered the use of DU an issue at all.

The US aim cannot be getting rid of nuclear weapons that Syria and Iran have, for the simple reason that Syria doesn't have any nuclear weapons, nor does it have any program for this. Iran has an experimental enrichemnet facility and is trying to master the nuclear fuel cycle. It is the capability of enriching the Uranium that US and the EU want to deny to Iran.

US aims primarily to make sure that its own supremacy, and that of its local proxies (Israel in the ME and India in the Indian Ocean), is nowhere even approachable, and to effect a regime change in those countries where there is opposition to US policies.

The world governments' (and that includes Ireland's) support to the US (or their silence and acquiesence to the US) is largely due to the economic power of the latter. While the US firms will be free to trade and will not pull out if Ireland refuses refuelling, the US government can indeed bring immense pressure to bear. And the US politicians and media will mount a campaign like the one against France, which resulted in economically substantial trade in French wine being lost.

The US manufacturers will continue their investment in Ireland if the profits are right for them. After all, their investment in China has not gone down, despite the US government often stating that China is their adversary; and China continues to buy US Treasury Bills. That is Capitalism for you!

Other factors to be considered are the interests of Russia and China. Why would these let the US of A have full control over ME oil resources?

I find it is almost at the stage now where journalistically speaking, if you are not with Israel, you are with Hizbollah.
It is reported that Hizbollah are feeding many of the displaced people finding refuge in schools and churches throughout Lebanon.
Hizbollah slowly but surely are becoming the official Lebanese army - certainly plenty of Lebanese feel that way at the present time.
And what of this new UN resolution - neither of the two parties fighting each other are having any input, both sides stick 2 fingers up to Un resolutions.
Is there anyway this can work?
Will this end up as another border massacre of UN peacekeepers?

also re the US and India PD.
What about the sale of F16's and extensive defence training modules to India from the US?

hi h2d, it is indeed a pleasure to read your calm posts, although I do wish you took an interest in history.

From many debates that I have read (not necessarily on mumsnet, and not necessarily participated in, the Holocaust has been invoked so many times that it does seem to be the justification for everything Israel does.

Regarding Judaism, Israel and Zionism, I make distinctions. We Muslims feel empathy with Judaism and Christianity because the Prophets in their Holy Scriptures are also our Prophets (albeit with some difference - we believe them to have been protected from sin, so we do not accept the Bible stories where they are shown to be sinning). The message we believe was the same in all the religions - the Oneness of God. Zionism has many colours, but the Zionism which displaced a people and tried to wipe out their claims and history is the one I am dead against. Jews do have a right to a national home if they want it, but to award soem other people's home for them to settle in, and to expand the Jewish national home to grab the natural resources (notably water and the land), is unsavoury to say the least. For this reason I had been opposed to Israel in Palestine, but like Saadia I recognise that the Jews who are now settled there have a right to stay on, and form their own state if they want it.

The borders of Israel I have always been uncomfortable with. I asked why was Palestine denied a coast, the entire coast being allocated to Israel?

So while I don't think there is any confusion, perhaps I did not explain it better earlier on.

The Irgun and Stern gang links were shown in response to those who keep calling Hamas and Hizbullah as terrorist outfits. As far as I can see, most freedom struggles have been accompanied by "terrorism" of sorts. The terrorist gangs Irgun and Stern became larger later under different names, and even produced the highest authorities in the Israeli government. My point is simply that if the Palestinian and Lebanese freedom movements are terrorist, so were the Jewish movements; if the Palestinians are accused of complicity with the Nazis, so were the Jewish gangs, and as for the latter's wanting political alliance to further their cause, the same can be said for the Palestinians.

To take things forward, I want the label of terrorism to applied evenhandely. If people call Hamas and Hizbullah terrorist organisations, they should apply the same label to the Israeli and US Governments; and if people call the supporters of these organisations as terrorists, the same should be applied to supporters of Israel and the US.

The most helpful thing is what I have seen and posted as "Bob's Peace Plan", although I would like more coast to given to Palestine in that map.

yes Piffle, the F16's and extensive defence training modules to India are for the creation of a regional superpower to look after the interests of the US of A in the Indian Ocean, and to counter China.

Pakistan has also been offered some F-16's, but rather lower-grade ones, with such strings that these will not be used in any showdown with India, rather internally on civilian populations that refuse to accept the US-dictated terrorist list.

The US government has found that the loss of US armymen (even in a few thousands) is unacceptible to the US population, so it is going to rely more and more on proxies and unmanned and guided weapons. What we are going to see from the US is strenghtening of Israel and India, an accelaration of satellite-guided (and maybe -launched) weapons, a much more reliance on drones (and expansion of their capabilities).

hi pd - the Bob's map links on Islamonline seem to be down, but I have read some of the textual descriptions of what he proposes and I agree they are not without interest. Thinking 'outside the box' can only help develop strategies for peace.

I might develop a passion for history - after all, it informs our present - but sometimes I feel the analysis can actually detract from solving the present situation. Indeed, it is the nature of "I have been wronged, so I will avenge" that is behind so much of the current bloodshed, and makes working towards solutions so tragically slow and complex.

I appreciate it's not the most learned / complicated source, but Wiki's entry for Zionism suggests the Jewish nation originated in Israel some 3000 years ago. The analysis of displacement is also not as straightforward / uncontentious one might gather from a cursory inspection of your post. It is somewhat disingenuous, I feel, for you to generously allow those who live there the right to stay on "or form their own state if they want it."

I understand your reason for relating Hamas / Hizbollah with Irgun / Stern gangs: you perceive struggles for freedom tend to be accompanied by terrorism of some sorts, and thus the present terrorism is perhaps justified. Personally, I don't agree. At all.

Sorry, have got to leave now, we have a birthday party to attend !

I don't know what people's view is on Ben Netanyahu - but I watched him being interviewed on Breakfast News this morning and all he could do (instead of addressing the tragic loss of life in Lebanon) was JUSTIFY it by saying that Israel's bombing of civilan areas and the subsequent loss of Lebanese life was akin to Churchill's bombing or Dresden and the death of 1000's of Germans !

At one point, when he continued with his Churchill analogy, he even said "why are you shaking your head ?" to Peter Sissons. To which Peter said "I am not shaking my head" !!!!!

Then Peter interviewed Prince Hassan of Jordan (the brother of the late King). He provided a very different analysis. No attempt whatsoever to pour praise on Hizbollah, Iran or Syria. He actually condemned their activities and said that Iran must not obtain nulcear technology as it would destabilise the whole region, let alone the world. He did of course say that the current bloodshed must stop.

Under King Hussain Jordan became an increasingly "moderate" Arab state and has been one of the only countries in the region to deal intelligently with its Islamicists, i.e. allowing a few to sit as govt. reps. instead of torturing them and imprisoning (al la Egypt, Algeria, etc.) knowing full well that marginalising them it will increase Islamic fanaticism in the region.

I thought the latter provided a very intelligent, analytical, non-emotioanl view of the current situation.

Iran hasn't said that Israel is to be wiped off the map nor that it's occupants thrown into the sea... I've just realised that this is being repeatedly reiterated down the posts....

The Iranian president's speech has been misinterpeted or misunderstood (wilfully or not I wouldn't know) take a look