Child taken from womb? Truth into darkness....

[LakeDistrictBabe]

Ok, the old thread is nearly full. If you read the other three, I don't need to re-write everything again ;)

But you know I am referring to the case involving an Italian mother and the British social services.
Opinions welcome.

Are you now willing to say sorry for your mistake?

He won't. In great part I think becuase he doesn't think he did anything wrong.

He thinks not checking the status of the extract (which turned out not to be public) and not checking for sensitive information (turned out there was a fair bit in there) is just an "oops" and no biggie.

I honestly don't believe he really understands why the not checking and double checking with fresh eyes and a native speaker is such a big deal.

And he is one of the ones in charge.

Yes gold. Except he usually misses the "already in care" bit out because it doesn't fit the baby snatching thing.

Oh, but rather than take children into care who need it, they are taking children from, healthy loving families, or women so vulnerable they will not be able to fight the LA.

Not too sure that the mens rea argument avails JH. The intent required is simply the intent to publish when you know or should know that what you publish is in breach of a court order. He plainly knew about the order, he intended to publish the article, and he made clear that he had a very good idea what was in the article when he went on at some length about the differences between English and Italian court. Even if his Italian is worse than he makes out, it wasn't difficult to see the names in the article and work out whose names they were. Therefore he knew or should have known that the children's names were included in the article.

But really the issue here is more of a moral one. This is a man who professed to be very concerned about Ms Pacchieri and her children, yet he has no qualms at all about the fact that he splashed those children's names around the internet in his somewhat bewildering desperation to score points on a mothers' discussion forum. Hypocrisy perhaps?

As far as I understand it, he is saying, and has been for years, that targets exist to take babies into care and thence into adoptive placements, and that LA are paid money to do this.

I and many others have pointed out that this isn't true; targets exist to try and speed up adoptive placements for children who are already subject to care orders i.e. their parents have been found unable to care for them and they need a permanent new family.

He claimed in 2011 to have the 'stats' to prove this but refused to share these stats until this thread. However, our excitement was dashed when the 'stats' he shared turned out to be a spreadsheet he had filled in himself without explaining where any of the numbers came from.

The British Agency for Adoption and Fostering appears to have the clearest statistics. Currently 6% of children in care are babies i.e. under one year old. the average age for a child being adopted is - I think, please someone correct me if I am wrong - about 3 years.

There is just not a shred of evidence to support such a wicked claim.

So it is awful that an MP continues to make it and continues to frighten vulnerable people who are facing care proceedings, or worried they might.

That he appears to believe he is 'funny' and demonstrates utterly no remorse or regret for his recent behaviour, is even more disturbing to me.

BoreOfWhabylon

One of the many!

I hope he stops publishing or revealing names on public. Because that could be "one too many".

Spero

I don't understand why that is not disturbing for many others.

He made more "faux pas" in twenty days on mumsnet than Berlusconi in twenty years as the Italian Prime Minister.

I guess that is really a record.

the thing is nenny it is actually easier to spot the names if your Italian is very limited. Becuase you can't skim read for gist, your language limitations actively force you to read intensively, word for word.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear in my post.

He claims these babies are 'needlessly' 'dragged' from their families. He has quoted a number of '10,000'.

This would be contrary to domestic and international law, as well as an affront to common decency and humanity.

But it is no doubt very, very frightening if you are a young mother facing care proceedings to hear an MP say this kind of thing.

it is very frustrating as someone who works very hard to give parents a chance in care proceedings to be continually told I am 'morally bankrupt' and part of an 'evil system'.

But at least I know he is talking bollocks. Others don't and listen to him. I have been contacted by some of those women who now regret very much ever meeting him. He advised them not to co-operate with Social Services; one lost her baby to adoption.

In other words by deciding to define his Italian as "very little" his excuse shrank.

But seriously what kind of ...not too switched on to risks person... posts a LEGAL doc extract from a case that was heard in the Tribunale of MINORS without being extremely prudent in terms of getting it thoroughly checked over by several people first ?

If "oops" is taken as "oh ok then, no breech of court order then it is open house on breeching all court orders cos all ypu have to do is claim "well I didn't read it properly first, ops!" and no action is taken.

He advised them not to co-operate with Social Services; one lost her baby to adoption.

He appears to have a gift for leaving a trail of shattered women who once trusted him in his wake.

Good night all. If I get any substantive response from the Lib Dems, I will let you know.

I really hope I do.

I am feeling very sad about the state of affairs at the moment.

Surely, all that any of us want is for every child to have a shot at a loving home - as Kewcumber said, to know that they are the most important person to somebody. Sadly, sometimes birth parents cannot be that somebody.

Why JH wants to dress this up in absurd conspiracy theories and detract attention from what needs to be done to make sure the best and quickest decisions are made for children is utterly, utterly, beyond me.

Spero out of everything else that we have been discussing that is truly the saddest thing.

The thought that there is a chance that vulnerable women at their most fearful may have trusted a person in a position of power who has then essentially abused that trust by ill-advising them, possibly because of their own biased views and has subsequently left them probably more damaged that they were before because of it. I would really hope that if something like that was happening in our society then the people in charge of the person abusing the trust of vulnerable people would do something about it before that person was able to continue to do damage.

This is all theoretical of course.

with my letter to Nick Clegg in 2012 I attached a copy of a private message I had received from a woman who had been 'advised' by JH. She lost her baby.

She gave me permission to share this as she wanted to stop him hurting anyone else.

I never received a response from Nick Clegg.

I was getting worried about the thread a few pages back because I think JH was trying to get "matey" with you all, and I think he sees himself as a bit of a "wag" and would like to show he has a sense of the ridiculous, and join in the jokes about the Lord of the Rings - and his "nighty night ladies" turned my stomach. I also think he linked Spero's tweet as it showed her name. He really does have it in for her, not that she's bothered I know. She and many other women on here could run rings around him intellectually and in terms of partaking in a serious debate.

Really hope you get good responses Spero and others. I am also doing my bit in the hope that someone, somewhere will share our concerns. I have a feeling though that he is just seen as an "oddball" and no one takes any notice of him. I'm a bit in the dark about blogs and suchlike. Someone linked to a blog about him - any idea who wrote it or is that the idea of blogs that they are anonymous. Bit technologically challenged here.

So if anyone ever wants to give me any shit about my 'personal' 'spat' with JH then you can understand what has motivated me over the years.

Night Spero

I'm actually a little bouyed up by the "MP blatently driving a mumsnet account while under the influence" incident.

That doesn't strike me as the move of a man who still has everything to lose.

I am going to bed cheering myself up with the thought that to tonight was the last puff of bravado from somebody who knows it's game over, and is just waiting for the offcial axe to fall.

And I'd appreciate not having that cheering thought ripped from me before I sleep .

I'll face the realistic and cynical reality in the morning.

And tweet the fuck out of "I am not sober. But I am right" attributed to our great leader himself.

just a quick question, those who have debated with him before.... I'm going to assume it's never been a "normal" debate, but is it usually as surreal as this and littered with such a plethora of "evidenced" misconduct and unprofessionalism ?

This is the worst I have seen him. The misrepresentations and refusal to answer questions are nothing new but the 'badinage', being pissed and breaching court orders re children represent a new low.

This is definitely the worst, overwhelming feeling of watching a carcrash happen...

I believe screenshots of the relevant parts of the threads are being passed to the whips office by a LibDem MP.

Interesing. Cos the misrep and the refusal to answer questions is all I saw .... right up until he sent Spero the unredacted page from an ongoing court doc. Anybody know what time that was? Near pub o'clock ?

And after that he seemed far far more reactive and erratic. Culminating in posting the girls' names. And of course tonight's "I am not sober, but I am right" under the influence posting.

Is it just me that sees a distinct downward spiral after the point where he slapped down a card to try and best Spero, and five seconds after he sent it he realised he'd just handed her an ace ?

I feel like I've been watching him self destrct right in front of me ever since he realised his poker mover with Spero's email was like thowing a bomb in your own front door when you were trying to spite your neighbour.

west

snap

just one more question for the Hemming vetrans, all this "off to the pub" "back from the pub" stuff, is that new too ?

I think he just lives in own mean spirited little bubble (hence the constant digs at Spero in comments which she hasn't even participated, as she's a 'real' person) and he finds it amusing to goad these 'angry nutcase wimminz.'

I have to pity the fact that he has no idea how despised he is in real life but the people I discuss politics with (yeah, mainly other mums... ) and seems to think it's just an internet trend. Like it's 'cool to hate him' or something. Bubble Boy.

Kudos to him for doing something so repulsive he's managed to be hated from other countries. Kudos.