Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services! II

[saragossa2010]

As the other is full.
There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.
The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing and the more cases like this which receive publicity the better.

The point is it is like justice in China and Russia. If it's secret then those involved cannot justify themselves. If we have more in the public domain that is a greater good than any risk from disclosure to the children and parents involved. it is why open justice and published judgments and rights for all those involved in child disputes to use twitter, blogs and emails and no stifling of free speech.

Thankfully things are all moving this way and we lucky to have people like JM and C Booker to give publicity to the issues which need much wider debate. I would imagine most social workers and lawyers involved in this area are very happy that the issues get more public debate not less. Most professions would.

@Maryz

Possible scenario after reuniting child and mother:

• JH wins and baby goes to Italian mum.
• Italian mum deprived of temporary custody of baby because family's environment (both parents unemployed) unsuitable for baby.
• Baby goes back to family after lots of Italian drama, with mum screaming out of the court and crying lots.
• Parents and baby ending up on papers with the title "manic mother terrifying little daughter, stripped of custody again"
• Child, now 10 or 11 goes to foster family for the rest of her life.
• JH statement: I made the right choice in reuniting mother and child, in the end the child was Italian and it was not our business.
• Child becomes a manic football hooligan, come to UK and beats the heck out of JH.

Has JH read bubble wrapped children at all? It's central point as I recall it is how hellishly difficult it is to care for a child severely traumatised by his birth parents, particularly in light of lack of cohesive post adoption support. I wouldn't have thought the author would in any way be supportive of JH.

Sorry lilka you already said that. This is what happens when I try to dive back into a thread after a busy morning of baby snatching and sundry other really wrong things.

Does anyone know for sure (I haven't read the judgements in depth I skimmed them all) whether the baby has been placed with parents yet? Out of interest

The baby hasn't been adopted yet Lilka, no.

Don't know where the baby is now but I repeat my fear that all this whipped up hysteria could well frighten off any potential adopters. To which JH would probably reply 'good'. It doesn't seem like the child is ever treated as an actual human being in all of this. I search in vain for any statement by the conspiracy theorists actually directed to the welfare of the child and what she needs.

Maryz I wish I had needed your wise advice, now so many of my pearls of wisdom are lost to the ether.

Let's see if this is acceptable - do you think there is something a little odd about JH's thought processes in that he can so completely ignore facts which go against his arguments?

I think it is rather unfair how just about the only person brave enough in the UK to seek to expose miscarriages of justice in this field gets such as hard ride on mumsnet. Who else is exposing cases where things go wrong? Who else is giving a voice to parents denied a voice?

I think the courts are moving in the right direction in publishing more judgments. That is the way to improve things so that people can see why decisions were taken.

I do think this Government is seeking to have more children adopted and more quickly and I am against that trend. In fact I would rather more children were left with their parents even if there is some risk to them than removed as their chances after they are removed are usually worse. So well done JH.

The defensiveness of those in the system says all most of us need to know about the defects in such system.

Juliet I refer you to Nina's post at 00.46 today.

Have you read it ?

Please do.

Then all your questions will be answered.

If you haven't read it, won't read it, or have read it and refuse to engage with any of it then nothing that is said here will ever make a dent on what you chose to believe.

And you might just ask yourself whether you think that is a happy or acceptable position for a sentient human to find herself in.

Spero I have the thread if you want me to send it you. I C+Ped it and it is not lost.

I hope someone out there is doing research into mental health and pregnancy. It is SO common that women either get PND or have some kind of episode during pregnancy and it can be SO disruptive for everyone involved. The Services, whichever are involved, really need to address this issue in a joined up and preventative way.

Makes me absolutely furious that this kind of thing can happen at all, and the cloak and dagger way in which secrecy is upheld (what's the point?) just hinders the process, costs more in court fees and huge amounts of stress as mentally unstable women lose confidence, gain paranoia which then increases the likelihood of their label sticking.

Would I be right in thinking that mental illness in pregnant or postnatal mothers is increasing in frequency? Is it an age thing? Whatever it is, the legal system seems still to be geared to an 1950s approach to child protection.

"In fact I would rather more children were left with their parents even if there is some risk to them than removed as their chances after they are removed are usually worse."
Yes, I personally met a few ones who were raped and abused and they were soooooo unhappy to have found lovely foster families, one being my sister-in-law by the way. I don't know if the naivete of such posts disgusts me or what else.

Stay classy JH!

passedgo secrecy is not being upheld, the court judgements have been published

I'm not furious that there are mechanisms to ensure that children are protected from birth parents who cannot bring them up safely without harming them, however unintentionally. I'm bloody glad. The Italian court already deprived the mother of her right to parent her older children who were described as having been 'traumatised and terrorised' by her I think. Then she's supposed to get another chance automatically with another child when her circumstances don't appear to have changed

Juliet- do you realise that children are in the care system because BP are unable to care adequately for them
The speeding up of the adoption system is to prevent those in the care system languishing in the care system

I would love to know what you ( John Hemming ) think should happen to children whose parents have been proved unable to care adequately for them or have been abusive
Do you think it is a parents right to be able to do anything to their children - that the child is a possession?

"Would I be right in thinking that mental illness in pregnant or postnatal mothers is increasing in frequency?"

I don't think that is the case. Maybe it is more talked about.
In this case, the lady was already affected by a mental disorder.

I have an edited version of this thread which I condensed down to just a few posts containing certain threats and other unpleasantness by JH and responses by Spero and NanaNina and a few others. I have one version with names of posters included, and another with most names either completely blanked out or blanked out except for the first letter

It's great.

The urge to stick it on twitter with well chosen comments about JH is overwhelming, but don't worry I wouldn't ever put anything online without the poster's consent. Which is more respect for others than JH has, given he stuck some of the content of the mothers emails on this thread without her permission

Thanks Mignonette - it may need to be appendix 1 to my statement for the future suing.

@lilka
supports lunatics like Ian Josephs who believe child molesters shouldn't be reported to the Police

What?!?!?!? I hadn't read this one!!!!!!!!!! secretly prepares logs to burn JH at the stake