Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services! II

[saragossa2010]

As the other is full.
There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.
The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing and the more cases like this which receive publicity the better.

The point is it is like justice in China and Russia. If it's secret then those involved cannot justify themselves. If we have more in the public domain that is a greater good than any risk from disclosure to the children and parents involved. it is why open justice and published judgments and rights for all those involved in child disputes to use twitter, blogs and emails and no stifling of free speech.

Thankfully things are all moving this way and we lucky to have people like JM and C Booker to give publicity to the issues which need much wider debate. I would imagine most social workers and lawyers involved in this area are very happy that the issues get more public debate not less. Most professions would.

Bad publicity for our country

Has anything new happened on this thread? I did read the earlier one...

Sadly roadwalker many people do have that mentality. Everything is framed in terms of the parents 'rights' and nothing is said about the children, who are treated exactly as the possessions of the parents, who don't have a right to grow up without being harmed

It's stunning the things JH, CB and IJ and their supporters come out with. That only children who are being physically and sexually abused should be taken into care! That children should only be adopted if the parents are criminally convicted of an offence and if the parents are acquitted, the child must go home! It's just astonishingly naive and stupid

Juliet Do you realise how serious things have to be for SS to even consider recommending permanent removal from birth parents?

I'm quite shocked that anyone would take the view that it's better to leave them with their BPs even if there's risk.

And, quite often, adoptions break down because of damage inflicted on children by their parents, not because of anything bad in the new home.

Very naive & rather dangerous point of view, in my opinion.

O yes lakedistrict.

Ian Joseph's clear advice used to be - even if you believe your child is being sexually abused, don't report it. He may have changed his advice recently, I haven't felt mentally strong enough to go on his site for over a year.

He works in close cahoots with JH, they are both on the forced adoption website. JH has been asked repeatedly, certainly since summer of last year if he will formally and explicitly disassociate himself from that advice. He refuses to do so.

The reporting of this case has been horde Dou's, my only question was why the bay is being adopted in the UK rather than Italy but it seems the Italian authorities said to do this.

We had ss involvement when I had post natal psychosis after ds4 and they were fab.

I am sure errors are made, people are hu!an after all and I do worry about parents who lack support and education perhaps not getting the support and help the nee when they have involvement with child protectioon services, but really they do not want to remove children from their parents, its always a last resort and not done lightly.

@claig
LOL going from the DM to LaRepubblica is not much of a progress, sorry!! Kudos to you for trying though :)

I've to say that you're so naive that it made me smile... NYTimes? Der Spiegel?? .... bwahahaha I deem that some journalists might have some kind of pride and any serious journalist who would research the topic would call it pure
Unfortunately, only a bunch of Italian journalists deserve to be called 'serious and responsible'.

What?!?!?!? I hadn't read this one!!!!!!!!!!

Yes indeed. Allow me time to find the exact quote on Ian Josephs pathetic nonsense site, (if you Google it you'll see why it takes time to find anything on there!!) and I'll post it here for you. In a nutshell, if a mother finds that her boyfriend or family member has sexually abused her child, IJ advises that reporting said boyfriend/family member to the Police would be a very bad idea because SS will get involved and wil take the child away to be adopted

JH has linked to Ian Jospephs site before, and basically says he agrees with IJ's position on forced adoption

When challenged by me and others as to whether he supports IJ's beliefs in crazy things like not reporting sexual abuse to the police, Hemming non-commitally says that he doesn't know EVERYTHING that IJ says, but refuses to publically say 'no I don't support Ian Josephs' and then merrily keeps on name referencing him elsewhere

"In a nutshell, if a mother finds that her boyfriend or family member has sexually abused her child, IJ advises that reporting said boyfriend/family member to the Police would be a very bad idea because SS will get involved and wil take the child away to be adopted hmm
"
This is utterly disgusting, I'm about to vomit.

Unfortunately press is not free in Italy. Or JH would have his reputation destroyed all over Italian press tomorrow. What a disgusting, horrible, fake man

It's not John Hemming saying that, it's Ian Josephs

However, John has previously on many occasions spoken well of Ian and has always and continues to refuse to say "okay, I now realise that Ian says this, I make it known publically that I disagree with him". NEVER. He just vaguely waffles and drops the subject

I have now found the exact quote, but have found many other ones too. I am compiling a list of Ian Josephs quotes so that no one else has to trawl through his pile of horseshit, and will post them here shortly

It's very important people are aware of IJ because he does actually advise birth parents who have lost their children, he has a book downloadable for parents, he puts his phone number out and tell parents to contact him...you will find enough parents on facebook who have done that

It's very scary and sickening and important to be aware of because as you will see when I post his quotes, he advises parents to do exactly the things that will harm their case is court the most

In his turn, Ian Josephs praises John Hemming and Christopher Booker for beng awesome just like him and doing the right thing

Christopher Booker has referenced IJ before and makes it very clear that he thinks IJ is fantastic. So you will get a good measure of CB as well when I post the IJ quotes, since CB very clearly supports IJ

I would happily join in any campaign but I fear unless someone high profile is prepared to take him on, nothing will happen. He survived a very serious attack by a high court judge in 2008.

I believe that anyone should be allowed to say and do what they like as long as they don't break any laws BUT we are entitled to certain standards from those paid by the public purse.

Fwiw, my view is that these men (and most of the 'crusaders' in this field are men) act out of a deep sense of outrage that the state would dare interfere in their right to control their families, which sadly includes the right of families to abuse children within the family network and not report it.

It is very telling how they lack almost entirely any focus on the child. The child is important only insofar as it is a unit of the family - which they control.

I find it interesting that JH is so quiet on what is said in the judgement about the older children. Especially child C, who is reported to be "traumatised". Is it preferable for children to be traumatised then? Rather than somewhere safe? Where's the concern for the children in all this?

I am just reading IJ's site now to try and form an opinion. I had never even heard of him before now.

Some of the claims made are

1. a foster agency founded by social workers getting around £1500/week per child was recently sold for £130million?

Is this true?

which sadly includes the right of families to abuse children within the family network and not report it.

This would be enough for me to burn them all.. in the public place, of course. You wondeer why they are doing such crusades... personal interest?

Ian Josephs beliefs and quotes. Judge him on this. Sorry its a long list:

on the sexual abuse issue

1. "Think very carefully before you report a violent partner(especially if the abuse is only verbal) or even a sexual molester(especially if the children beg you to say nothing) as once social workers or police are involved you risk losing your children for "failing to protect them"

1. "NEVER contact social services (child protection) for help or advice. You should consider very carefully before you report a partner who batters you or even a stranger who sexually assaults your young child, as if you do the SS will as often as not take your children into care (and later for adoption) to "protect them" from risk!"

idiotic advice and statements

1. When outraged lawyers,judges,and social workers accuse me of "meddling in complex family cases without knowing all the facts" My reply is to repeat once again that FORCED ADOPTION is always wrong no matter what the facts

1. NON MOLESTATION ORDERS :- can forbid a mother from molesting her own daughter !

1. Long term fostercare(until age 18) should only be ordered if approved by a jury.

1. Closed adoption should never take place without parental consent.

1. The ss are your enemies ,so ignore their threats and refuse their instructions ESPECIALLY IF THEY TELL YOU TO SPLIT UP FROM YOUR PARTNER as that way they can attack a single parent much more easily than a united couple. ! The more you "cooperate" with them the more likely you are to lose your children later !

1. Often alas you will have to sack your lawyers and represent yourself simply because they will not let you speak in court

1. BEWARE the "Official Solicitor" ! If you get too upset or too excited the judge may decide you are not capable of instructing a solicitor or representing yourself and will appoint this parasite to represent you instead.He is by law forbidden to put on a case for you as his job is simply to agree with the "SS" ,to refuse to let you speak, and ensure that you lose your precious children without being allowed to say a word !!

1. To cap it all social workers only too often, go round schools and friends of parents and,by their loaded questions spread harmful rumours about the parents

1. family courts should be criminal courts

10. "What about Baby P? " I hear you cry !Well, physically injured children like baby P,Victoria Climbé,and others are not good adoption material .They are in any case avoided like the plague if there is a brutal and often drunken boyfriend or stepfather on the premises to intimidate the social workers. Such children are more often than not, callously left to die !Meanwhile social workers move on to easier targets and accuse respectable and more compliant parents (especially single mothers)of posing a "risk of emotional abuse" to their children, and even to their unborn babies !That is how the "SS" work now

11. NO CHILD SHOULD BE FORCIBLY TAKEN INTO CARE FROM A PARENT UNLESS THAT PARENT HAS COMMITTED or HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME AGAINST A CHILD. All such cases would then commence in the criminal courts WITH THE RULES OF EVIDENCE AND STANDARDS OF PROOF OF THE CRIMINAL COURTS including the right to ask for a hearing by jury if the possible sentence was severe.If the verdict returned is "not guilty" or if charges were dropped the children should be returned immediately

12. Broken bones,cigarette burns,a child's complaints (not anonymous tipoffs!) of sexual abuse,should all be looked at by independent medical experts.It is however very rare that parents who abuse or allow this sort of abuse ever dare to come to court to beg for the return of children they probably detest! (that last sentence is absolute bollocks)

quotes on adoption

1. IF the "SS" threaten to take your children for adoption,make sure they never forget you !

Hug them tight "at last contact" so the ss cannot take them away easily. Tell them wicked people are stealing them for money ,say "no" to adoption by nasty people as you are their real mummy !

1. If your child is about to be freed for adoption and the adopters are put in a separate court so you cannot see them or identify them persuade a friend to hang about the corridor tables outside the court room looking busy but ready to follow the adopters to find out who they are and where they live! Do everything you possibly can to avoid losing contact altogether.

1. Make sure you hold them tight to stop interuptions when you tell the children that "wicked people have stolen them for money and that you will never stop fighting to get them back" ! Whisper this in their ears or calmly make the statement out loud in spite of horrified supervisors who may then try to shout you down !Even children as young as 3 will remember all their lives such a brutal but necessary message. Vital however it is, as it will eventually make a stable adoption impossible to sustain !

1. If you find your adopted child 's address or school MAKE FACE TO FACE contact immediately !Do NOT SEND EMAILS OR CARDS IN ADVANCE or make any phone calls that could warn the adoptive parents and send them to court for an injunction !

Well, Hemming?

Agree with him?

If not, will you just finally say that you don't agree with him, and that you won't name drop him any more because of his advice?

@Lilka
Thanks for taking your time in writing that, really. I saved a copy for JH's Italian admirers.
Karma is b!tch, isn't it?

I don't have time at the moment to read it in full, I will try to have a proper look later and make up my own mind.

I haven't had time to read what evidence he is basing his claims on. Im being lazy and thought someone might have already done that!

His solutions (regardless of whether claims are accurate) don't seem like bad ideas.

1. Impose criminal rules of evidence in family courts. I assume this would also mean anyone giving evidence would have to swear on oath and if found to be giving inaccurate information could be prosecuted. Is this a bad thing? Wouldn't this encourage being careful with what evidence you provide and how accurate it was etc? parents and professionals alike.

1. Parents should be free to obtain a second opinion from an expert of their own choosing and call their own witnesses?