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ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

589 replies

donnie · 30/06/2006 20:19

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

OP posts:
Blu · 10/07/2006 22:55

True.....

aelita · 10/07/2006 22:57

Blu, you've read an awful lot into what I've said that just is not there.

Blu · 10/07/2006 22:59

yes, i have re-read, and see that you were not saying that. Sorry.
Still don't think it accounts for the overall attitude to what is going on.

Caligula · 10/07/2006 23:01

The west will never do anything about israel. For some reason Israel has a special dispensation - they can do what they like and there will never be any consequences. Even if they massacred whole villages, there would be no real sanctions. Public outrage is kept to a minimum by underreporting. We support them unconditionally.

moondog · 10/07/2006 23:02

And if they did act responsibly and less selfishly,most of the problems in and concerning the ME would be sorted overnight.

Bastards.

Piffle · 10/07/2006 23:05

And Rabin was the most moderate and progresive leader Israel have ever had, and he was gunned down, not by a Palestinian.
Two wrongs do not make a right
Hamas have lately agreed that the only solution is a 2 state solution
That is progress.
Lobbing land mines and shell fire onto civilian beaches in Gaza does not constitute a reprisal for the kidnapping and safe prisoner of war status Israeli soldier.
The current ruling leadership in Israel have warred throughout their generation
Nothing has been resolved.
27 UN sanctions against Israel
0 enforced
One must ask WHY!
It is not about right or wrong it is about fair play and equality and PEOPLE

aelita · 10/07/2006 23:12

bangs head against brick wall

Piffle · 10/07/2006 23:27

I do not judge Jews any differently because of WWII
An awful inhumane disaster was perpetrated upon them, from many nationalitie. It was hideous episode in history and one we all should have learned from
The whole inception of Israel was always going to be contentious. What has gone on sicne then is just tit for tat reprisals, no one any biger or better than the other when it comes down to it.
But Israel is being funded and armed by an/other countr/y/ies
One could actually land the entire load of war with Arab nations upon the feet of the Palestine crisis.
Sort that and you have a recipe for the start of peace in part.
So who is going to be the bigger man in all this?
or do we have to wait til Hilary Clinton gets into power?

kateandfelicity · 11/07/2006 13:51

piffle

yeah, i think we'll have to wait for Hilary...

certainly doesn't seem to be anyone with any guts to state the painfully obvious...

Blu · 11/07/2006 21:41

aelita - what is your view of what is happening?

aelita · 12/07/2006 10:45

My views? Fluid and as noncommittal as I can make them, unlike many of the entrenched ones I have seen on Mumsnet. But I don't think any argument I could put forward will make a blind bit of difference. I know more Israelis (quite a few, I worked for an Israeli company for a few years) than I do Palestinians (one, who I indirectly introduced to DH, Jewish by birth & atheist by choice. They are bosom buddies who choose not to discuss the situation if they can help it). The majority on both sides I'm sure are just ordinary people wanting to get on with their lives. I'm not arrogant enough to think I know enough about the situation and its history to judge too deeply. However the demonisation of Israelis and the lionisation of Palestinians that I see frequently on Mumsnet and elsewhere troubles me deeply . It's just not that clear-cut! The Israelis are judged more harshly & expected to behave in a certain way because of history - Carmanere for one made it quite clear. I feel all this talk of 'they' and 'bastards' is dangerous

Greensleeves · 12/07/2006 17:07

Another way of saying "entrenched views" would be "sound principles". Some situations are so baldly obvious and appalling that it's not possible to have a "fluid and noncommittal attitude" to them...unless one is pursuing a deliberate agenda of NOT having a firm opinion.

The problem of Israel's aggressive occupation of Palestine, and its forceful subjugation of the displaced civilian population, is one of those situations.

If you feel you don't know enough about the situation to progress beyond a "fluid and noncommittal" view, do some reading. Don't castigate other people for having more solid opinions.

aelita · 12/07/2006 18:44

Thanks for the advice Greensleeves. However I can and do read. Reading is not suficient for me to develop 'sound priciples' and and not the same as living in either area and experiencing day-to-day life, so unless that day comes I'll stick with my agenda, however it displeases you. And don't castigate me for making an attempt to see both sides.

Greensleeves · 12/07/2006 18:45

I don't think I did castigate you. Your post was very rude. Mine was direct, but not, I think, offensive.

SenoraPostrophe · 12/07/2006 18:49

Oh god that argument gets on my nerves. criticism of israeli government policy does not equal criticism of israelis.

taking as if it does, and talking as if those of us who disagree with Israel are somehow neglecting to see that Israelis suffer too is extremely patronising.

Greensleeves · 12/07/2006 18:54

Not to mention illogical, predictable and....old.

tortoiseshell · 12/07/2006 18:58

Israel has, since the State of Israel was formed, been aggressive and invasive - the occupation of Southern Lebanon being a case in point. And whilst there is wrong on both sides, the difference to my mind is that it is the Israeli GOVERNMENT that perpetrates atrocities against the Palestinians, whereas it is Palestinian TERRORISTS who attack Israel. I know it can be argued that the Palestinian Government have sponsored terrorism, but it's still a difference in my mind.

As far as the US goes, so much of the power there is held by (and I'm trying to word this very carefully, not wanting to offend anyone) Israeli-sympathetic Jews that I think they will never come down hard on Israel.

It's not just the outright killing that's wrong to my mind, it's the oppression of the Palestinians as well - having to negotiate to cross checkpoints to get to work, not being allowed to cross checkpoints to get to hospitals when in labour etc. It's not going to make people want a peaceful solution. And the Israelis should understand this - without getting religious, right back at the time of Jesus they were oppressed and occupied by the Romans, and they were looking for a military saviour who would set them free in a military sense. The idea of a peaceful solution was not open to them then, or now imo!

aelita · 12/07/2006 19:27

Funny, I thought yours was rude too. Maybe we were both mistaken,. And SenoraPostrophe, my comments have not been targeted at your postings, but oth
I really really don't want to get into a protracted argument over this. Blu asked me specifically what my feelings were and I responded. I've tried to explain my feelings of disquiet over the language and tone used on the board and if that's not accepted, then there's nothing I can do about it. As someone with more Israeli connections (who incidentally, have never proselytised to me on the conflict and one of whom has been thrown out of the Israeli military for his moderate prinicples) than Palestinian, and with Jewish family you might expect my views to be very one-sided indeed. I just make a big fucking effort to make sure they're not. Hence noncommittal. Sorry.

Greensleeves · 12/07/2006 19:29

I didn't know the Israeli military were throwing out soldiers for having "moderate" views. Things are obviously worse than even we feared then.

Piffle · 12/07/2006 19:39

speaking of the occupation of Lebanon
Seems they a re heading back this evening...
It's gonna blow I think
Especially with iranian nuke thing about to go off as well... hopefully not literally but we all know where Mr Ahminajad would send them first.

My firm and entrenched views are based on people I have met, news reels I have watched for 30 years and much reading I have done on the area, not nearly enough might I add.

I have an excellent book about what Israel is doing wrong written by an Israeli Jewish scholar.

I am also from an Irish catholic family who suffered at the hands of the British and while the situations are not identical there are many similarities
And there is only once answer
Someone has to be big enough to make the first move to lay down arms.
And you have to be willing to talk to the other side. How else can you move forward, make your nation safe and secure and a home for your people
Hamas have indicated they will agree to a two state solution. I do not demonise Israelis because of Israels politics, nor do I think every American is a big a twat as GWB.

Twiglett · 12/07/2006 19:48

well said aelita

"However the demonisation of Israelis and the lionisation of Palestinians that I see frequently on Mumsnet and elsewhere troubles me deeply . It's just not that clear-cut! The Israelis are judged more harshly & expected to behave in a certain way because of history - Carmanere for one made it quite clear. I feel all this talk of 'they' and 'bastards' is dangerous "

SenoraPostrophe · 12/07/2006 19:53

ok - that'll teach me to read the whole thread before posting. I don't think carmenere meant all Israelis though.

for the record though I do blame the israeli army/govt more than I blame the palestinians, but that's because they are the govt/army, where the opposition are terrorists, it's not because of history.

aelita · 12/07/2006 19:56

Why should it surprise you Greensleeves? No military organisation can operate without obedience. That's the way they work. This guy (a dear friend) was chucked out for signing a petition with others refusing to serve in the occupied territories. He'd still defend Israel to the death though from those who want it driven into the sea or 'wiped out in a single firestorm' (to paraphrase an Iranian statement from very recently). So would you if it was your homeland. Rather than seeing it as meaning things are worse than you thought, try looking at it the other way. It means, and this is something nobody ever seems to mention here is that there are plenty of Israelis who question the status quo, want a peaceful solution & who try to build bridges between the two peoples.

Greensleeves · 12/07/2006 19:57

It's got nothing to do with history, nothing to do with rightful homelands, nothing to do with WW2, nothing to do with esoteric ideas of any kind, FGS. It's about a government, exercising brute force, breaking international law into a thousand pieces under the noses of the rest of the world, and getting away with it.

gothicmama · 12/07/2006 20:01

Th e portrayal of teh situation in teh media makes it appear that Isreal is hard done to, I think peace will be along time coming but when you think that water is diverted to Isreal land and attacks ahve been directed at agricultural land then thoughts of genocide spring to mind (is this driven by unbalanced media reports I don't know),regardless of the history of teh nation, yes isreal has a right to exist but so does palistine. If WW2 is to be mentioned perhaps all Jehova witnesses Roma adn Physically disabeled and Mental ill people should expect the same level of support and funding as the West gives Isreal