ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

Everybody knows that there are plenty of ordinary families and decent people in Israel, Aelita. I'm not disputing it - I know several such families myself. I am talking about the state of Israel as a political force in the world. I and many others commonly say "America" when what we really mean is the Bush administration when we talk about the illegal activities of that regime in the world, or talk about "France" demanding a UN resolution before invading Iraq. Of course we don't mean "every civilian holder of Israeli citizenship". It's a red herring.

"The Israelis are judged more harshly & expected to behave in a certain way because of history"

Rubbish. The Israelis are judged more leniently because of history. If another sovereign state did what they've been doing for nearly 40 years on a regular basis, there'd be UN resolutions galore, talk of sanctions and international pariah status. Israel gets away with it because of its special status as the home and haven of a uniquely persecuted people, plus its inexplicable relationship with the US government who seem unable to genuinely criticise any of the outrageous things it does. And if anyone questions that, they're accused of anti-Semitism, which effectively shuts up many of Israel's critics. In the USA, most people still don't know who or what a Palestinian is.

I was there about 10 years ago with no particular affiliation to either side in the conflict. I met very well educated and pleasant people (historians, archaeologists and churchmen basically) from both sides but didn't have more than superficial contact to the average working class or unemployed.

Judging only from what I actually saw, experienced and was told personally, my sympathies lean more towards the Israelis being as they are pretty much under siege/threat of extinction from many neighbours and subject to random terrorist attacks, I find it unrealistic to expect them to behave very differently to the way they do.

I'm no expert on the region but I think if the situation is ever to be effectively turned around, it will have to be the Palestinians who take enormous steps towards friendship, reconciliation and forgiveness. It isn't easy to do and frankly I don't see it ever happening but that's the way it would work.

If the little guy threatens the big guy, how will the big guy respond? I compare it to the transition from apartheid. How much the non-white population of South Africa suffered under apartheid and how much they did to ensure a sucessful transition from the apartheid to real co-existance and interrelation. Go there now and sure lots of black people are still poor but some are very rich too, they live door to door with other groups, the kids go to the same schools etc. (I'm not claiming SA has no problems - violence etc) but the hatred divide has been overcome and it was the underpriviledged who made that possible in the end.

Count up the body bags on each side
Its truly shocking the difference

The whole situation is shocking because IMO it is basically so unnecessary. However, I think it's obvious that if you attack a power that has more advanced weapons that you have, the retaliation will lead to more fatalies on your side. How could that be different?

I didn't see (like I said) the whole picture from all strata of society on both sides. What I did strongly dislike was the settler-Palestinian village situation, the patrolling soldiers and the settlers marching through with guns. I think that the settler-villager set-up is extremely fraught because there is no sense of respect for other human beings that I could see anyway. It did make me think of the historical Australian settler-Aborigine or American settler-native American situation. I found the towns better in that regard, in as far as I was able to judge the situation.

caligula i couldn 't agree more than with your post of 8.20

israel is less criticised and less castigated because of history aelita.

agree with senora to about how patronising it is to assume a condemnation of the israeli people based on their governments' actions.

i have a vaguely psychotherapeutic take on it: the abused will abuse. and that is exactly what is being enacted on a national level in the middle east.

israel is beyond condemnation. but to my mind the international community, specifically the UN and the USA and Britain are even more culpable because of their abject failure to act in any way to censor israel's actions

my dh has just made a typically robust but absolutely spot on comment that it is also about an inherent racism present in the west: israel is the acceptable white man in the middle east. and arabs are inherently suspect.

Out of interest, suppose Israel suddenly has a change of government and policies, even returns to the UN resolution borders - what do you think would happen next? Would violence end?

yes. because the instigators of violence would lose their power base.

you can't have terrorists without the grassroots support that is needed to fund and hide them.

would be the end of al quaeda too.

Yes respectable governments always make the mistake of referring to terrorists as somehow being separate from their support base.

Israel of course, has never made that mistake and has never had any qualms about attacking what they perceive as their support base. Which means normal families. If Britain had behaved in a similar way in Northern Ireland, the equivalent would have been shelling the Ardoyne and justifying the loss of life on the grounds that the terrorists come from these houses. Which of course they did, but most respectable governments don't see that as justification for waging war on civilians.

even if the israeli occupation ended and there was a return to the pre-six day war borders, I cannot see how this would affect the existence of Al Q'aeda : recently it has suited Israeli Government spokespeople to mention Palestinian resistance and Al Q'aeda in the same breath because they want the rest of the world to regard them as the same - ie rabid terrorists. The 't' word has become so loaded since 9/11 - all it needs is a mention and people go mental IME. This is also how Bush manages to muster US support for the war he'll never win in Iraq - by continually referring to ' the terrorists'. What he actually means is ' the people who oppose our will' and that is also what the Israelis mean but calling them terrorists sounds better.

Just read on the BBC website - in retaliation for the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers, Israel hit 40 Lebanese targets overnight, killing 27 people which included 10 children. 10 people were from the same family.

It's no wonder the Arab states are so anti-Israel. It's wrong to capture soldiers, but it's horrific to kill children in retaliation.

quite, tortoiseshell.

I think Caligula is right too - I was thinking about this yesterday. What would have happened if the British army had sent the tanks into the Catholic areas of Belfast just because the IRA had kidnapped a soldier? There would have been an international outcry led by the US, that's what. And as for the deliberate bombing of power stations - hundreds could die because of that.

crumbs donnie....the israel/palestine issue is the fuel that feeds al quaeda recruitment all over the world, iraq has totally exacerbated things...

Al Qaeda always state they want the withdrawal of foreign troops from illegally occupied/invaded Arab lands
Palestine Afghanistan and Iraq.
It (the Palestinian situation)is an outrage not just to Muslims but to many many more outside of that faith.
Me for instance

me too piff

donnie, thanks for raising this. I am appalled by how little media attention this gets.

I imagine that Israel's reaction was exactly what the people who captured the soldiers were hoping for.

lets call a spade a spade

Al Quaeda are terrorists
Suicide bonmbers are terrorists
hamas are terrorists
Some of the Israeli armies actions are terrorist in nature

Palestinians aren't terrorists
Israelie aren't terrorists

Palestinians and Israelie have a right to a homeland in peace (nobody seems to want to mention the whole Jordan argument here though do they>)

wish there was an easy solution like you all seem to feel

I tell you what lets get all the arab nations surrounding the small strip of land that is Israel to sign a document ratifying its existence and saying that they will co-exist peacefully

Lets get Jordan (a country that didnt exist until the british mandate and is 98% populated by Palestinians by ethniciity) to open its borders

Lets get a miracle that both sides who live in fear can finally come to a solution that removes bloodshed

newsnight

I just watched this on the news. Have any of those surrounding countries or their supporters got nukes. Because I think someone will nuke Israel if they have. This could be the start of a truly awful situation.

but do you know what UCM, if i were a middle eastern country, or in fact any country in the world, i'd be gearing up my enrichment programme sharpish because it is the best best protection against US pressure and even invasion. they're not trying to invade north korea are they? they can't do anything, despite the tests.

i'm utterly unsurprised that iran is racing towards nukes. if they don't get there sharpish they will go the way of iraq.

the whole thing is absolutely fucked and the international community has got to start being, and being seen to be fair. start enforcing some of the multitude of mandates passed against israel. stop ignorning the multitude of totally illegal acts commited by israel (building the equivalent of the berlin wall for a start).

it's utterly depressing

WEll Iran have been busy in the nuclear front and they are the previous supporters along with Syria of the last Lebanon siege.
Add to that Mr Ahminahjad love (not) of Israel's very existence one could draw an inevitable conclusion from that
I am not sure that Irans weapons programme is that advanced yet though as they are still only enriching uranium... how much else do you need one ponders.
At the end of the day civilians pay the price for who ever fights the battles, whatever the wrongs and rights, it all gets lost in translation amongst the bloodshed
The UN have hot footed it over there, Syria sound like they want to help, but one wonders how...
I think its fucked personally.

think the US will get involved pretty soon, militarily. ie. attack Iran and/or Syria