ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

agree with everything in Caligula's last post.

As for the UN - why would anyone with weapons listen to what the UN has to say? Israel has ignored so many UN resolutions no one can count them any more. Britain and the US ignored the UN and invaded Iraq - added to the fact that it does seem that Mr Annan has been involved - allegedly - in corrupt activities and nepotism. As beetle says, the UN is toothless.

I heard Bush on the radio today refusing to condemn Israel and saying that everyone has a right to defend themselved from terrorists , implying that Palestinians, Syrians, the Lebanese et al are ALL terrorists. His hatred of all Arabs and Muuslims seems palpable to me - and he also managed to drag Iran into the conversation, condemning them for propping up Hezbollah.

And dear old Blair refusing to get drawn into any specific comment except ' lets get back to the road map '.

As another poster said the only one who has said anything reasonable is Chirac ! ( well actually Putin as well).

I live and grew up in London during the 1970's when the IRA, who saw themselves as freedom fighters trying to free an occupied territory from oppression, were active in a bombing campaign. Their aim was to disrupt the state by their actions. Bombs nearly always had coded warnings, there were few mainland incidents of uncoded bombs planted to kill as many innocent individuals as possible.

I wonder why Hamas et al don't act in the same way. Blow up Israeli infrastructure etc. and the world would have more sympathy. By suicide bombing people in Israeli pizza restaurants, wedding parties etc. I am strangely unmoved by their plight.

I am writing this message simple to express how i feel,not to create an aggressive debate..... I live in a kibbutz in the Golan heights. I live here with my husband who is Israeli and my son who is two years and two months. I have lived in Israel for six years..i love my life here.. i am not jewish...why do i write that i am not jewish... because to me it is of no importance, i do not love my life here because i feel this is the home for jews, i do not love my life here because this is the Promised Land... i love my life here because i can leave my door unlocked, my son plays outside freely, up until the events of the recent days we have a good quality of life and i believe that this is what every parent wants for their child to feel safe, to feel free.
I do not want to create a whole debate about who is right and who is in the wrong. I am sure that Palestinians want their children to grow up in a peaceful enviroment just as Lebononians do just as Israelis do. I do however feel that people find it easy to pass judgement without actually experiencing these horrific incidents of recent days on both sides. Remember that you have the luxury of having peace on your boarders.., of not having to deal with national service and of having to deal with the fact that your husband is more than likely going to be 'called up',and that you as a mother just want to raise your child in a safe enviroment,somewhere where they can play and somewhere where you can be free as a family.

But would you be more moved by their plight if we were regularly reminded of the details of what it is like to live in Palestine in our media? And were you moved by the plight of Northern Irish catholics?

I don't think how terrorists behave, determines how much sympathy one should have for an oppressed people.

Someone said, earlier on in this thread, that the Israeli army fire 'thousands of bullets' into Gaza every week. Is this true? Do they randomly fire at civilians?

Erm....yes. They do. They've been doing so for quite a while.

No need for the 'Erm', Greensleeves. It was a genuine question.

So, let me get this straight. The Israeli army fire, at will , at any passing Palestinian?

I think you might find that to be propaganda

I think what Israel is doing in reality, doesn't really need to be exagerrated by propaganda.

and yet it seemingly is being

Sorry bubble, you're absolutely right, the "erm" was really smarmy. I'm not exactly an expert on this topic myself.

Sorry.

Are there any independent records/stats for Palestinian casualties? And if so, who records/reports them?

I am genuinely trying to understand this as every interview I've heard with both Israeli and Palestinian officials seems to totally contradict the other.

I suppose various human rights groups/ red cross/ red crescent might collect them?

Wikipedia has some stats here but they're not easily comparable. And I can't see what the source is.

Thanks, Caligula.

Could someone tell me about the wall?

Why was it built?

This is a good link - it gives a background to the wall and the legal arguments around it, and also in there are some comparable casualty figures
Amnesty

Am on a linking roll - apropos of media and propaganda, I think this puts it in context. This is about the NY Times done by an organisation called if americans knew (have no idea who they are) but it gives some indication of the level of media attention given to Israeli casualties compared to Palestian. NYT can't be that much out of sync with other American publications. Which makes me wonder how British publications do.

reporting of casualties by NYTimes

So, instead of walling off the Palestinians and the Jews (which would seem logical to me) the Israelis are sectioning off Palestinian areas which they deem to be 'a threat' and therefore, in their opinion, being able to contain what they perceive to be terrorist areas. However, in the process they are separating Palestinians from their families and places of work.

Am I close??

Why don't they just build a bloody great wall between Israel and Palestine and be done with it?

because the israelis have no right to some of the territory that they would wall off.

it is not theirs.

Where do the Christians come into this?

I imagine they are the forgotten section of society. Where do most of them live?

So, the whole of Palestine was given to the Jews (including the Jews who were already living there) after WW2, much to the (rightful, IMO) anger of The Palestinians. Over the years areas of Palestine have been returned to Palestinian rule by The Israelis.

So, what are The Palestinians fighting for now? Do they want the whole of Palestine to be returned?

no bubble .. that's not right .. its all the fault of the British

here's one I did earlier here

Just listening to radio 4 and heard somebody saying something like "it is not our job to change the way Hezbollah think, it is our job to defend Israel". (I am paraphrasing). In his defense, perhaps he was in the army, so that was why he said what he said (i.e. he was just following orders). However, this does seem to be the mindset of many of the Israeli spokespeople. I can see where this feeling comes from, but I think they will be 'defending' Israel until there is nothing left to defend. I think the big shift in Northern Ireland has come because of a change in the way that supporters of the IRA think. (Although I think this has more to do with world perceptions, particularly American perceptions of terrorists since 9-11 than deliberate actions by the British government).

On the other hand, if Israeli politicians did have to sit down and think of peaceful solutions, wouldn't that raise all sorts of questions about what Israel is for? Is it a place for people of the Jewish race who may not be religious jews (I think a big part of the early kibbutz movement was inspired by communism rather than religion), or is it somewhere where people can be practicing orthodox jews, and in that case, what kind of an orthodox jew? I think that for some israeli politicians being hardline against palestinians has distracted from more domestic problems.

I have sympathy for both sides, but the Israeli government has an explicit policy that every Israeli life is worth dozens of Palestinians, Lebanese, or anyone who they decide is their enemy and believes they have a right to violate all rules of engagement. It's interesting because Israel refuses to be a hypocrite about what it does, which is what the west does all the time; believe some lives are worth more than others, a fundamentally racist policy. I worry about this pathological disregard for any life but their own and the fact that they have nuclear weapons.

If Israel were a person, it's had to see how they wouldn't have been committed now. I do believe that their wish for a homeland is valid, but not at any cost.

Machsom Watch

brief history of Arab/Israeli conflict