ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

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ok - I can actually understand Israel wanting to take out the airport (althoug hizbollah didn't have an air force last time I looked) but hospitals? water treatment plants? medical aid convoys? suburbs?

They have behaned abonibally in this, and the constant mantra that it is "defence" because the other side want them eliminated just does not wash. why do some members of hamas/hizbollah want Israel eliminated then? could it perhaps be the suffering that the isreali army has inflicted on the palestinians and others for decades? yes, I know some of it is racism, but some british people want all black people to leave the country - it hasn't happened and it won't happen. I'm not going to suggest we bomb the areas of london where the BNP is strongest to deal with the problem.

the real irony is, that the israeli army just can't see that they're making everything worse with every bomb. you can't bomb terrorism out of existence - force only makes it stronger, and the people of Northern Ireland, the Basque country and countless other places will testify.

it is collective punishment in the sense that the Lebanese are being punished collectively for the actions of Hizbollah. remember that both Hiszbollah voters and non-Hizbollah voters are being punished.

but as I said in my previous post, that is beside the point. the argument that "they're all guilty because they voted for the bastards" has been used by al quaeda, you know.

"How can you know who the majority did or didn't vote for or what their particular beliefs are"

EXACTLY . We can't know that for sure and sure as hell shouldn't be bombing based on assumptions.

(but actually I do know that the majority didn't vote for one cabinet member because they never do. the majority do sometimes vote for a president, but not in the case of G Bush)

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I know the history, lisalisa, but causality is never that simple is it? Apart from anything else, the men firing the rockets now weren't born when Israel was formed. If it weren't for the continuing brutality, support for Hamas and Hizbollah would crumble.

"armchair critic": that's such a coward's argument. "you can't possibly have an opinion because you haven't personally been fired on". Bollocks.

"The only language that these people understand is force. You can negotiate until you are blue in the face but it won't change a thing. " arse. when have they ever tried? and I mean really tried?

lisalisa you know for a fact that every single building destroyed in Lebanon is a Hezbollah stronghold do you??? Read this taken from my local newspaper :

She gave Mohammed and her son pillow cases to wave from the car windows to identify themselves as noncombatants.

The flags of surrender did not work.

"What we survived in our village was nothing to what happened on the road," she said. "The planes came again and they attacked us. The car in front of me was hit and the car behind me. I couldn't stop to help anyone. My cousin died and his family. As I raced to escape, I saw a 2-year-old boy stuck against the windshield of a car. What could I do? I had to escape."

I know alot about the History of Palestine, and the creation of Israel, but BOTH sides need to stop the violence and take stock otherwise soon there will be nothing left to defend.

PMSL@ lisalisa
Hizbaollah captured the two soldiers to eliminate Israel
Could you explain exactly how this culiminates in the BIG plan.
Hamas have already indicated that they will negotiate a two state solution for Israel and palestine. major sticking point is that Sharons party and Olmert refuse to negotiate with Hamas.
So hardly any progress likely there.
And who can argue why anyone would object to Israels formation? I mean it was nobodys land was it? Beforehand? No...
Dispossession is noted historically for some of the longest, bloodiest and more hatred driven disputes of all time.
But time has moved on.
Hizbollah and Hamas will never be short of recruits. Israels behaviour at this time, merely ensures that.
I started looking at this conflict from a neutral viewpoint many years ago. I can see points from both side. It should as an impartial observer armed with pertinent facts, be impossible to defend either side without question... lisalisa you refuse to see ANY wrongdoing on the side of Israel and that is narrow minded IMO

Oh, don't spoil it Piffle.
I am learning a lot from this thread, mainly because people like Saadia and Lisalisa who clearly feel strongly about this but hold very different views have been able to discuss it by sticking to what they know (or believe) and not getting at each other. If you start typing things like 'pmsl' you're making it very hard for that kind of discussion to continue.

Public forum I think you'll find Kathy
I am allowed to question lisalisa and respond to her posting, I have been contributing to this thread also learning and questioning sinceh its inception, so I think it'll survive one minor mocking of one sweeping generalisation
Or am I just supposed to nod and agree?

how is piffle's pmsl different from lisalisa's "that made me laugh...You have also heard the phrase 'armchair critic'..... ", Kathy?

(I can see both sides you see)

You're entitled to mock if you really think that's the best thing to do, and I'm entitled to point out why I don't think it's very constructive.

OK SenoraP, apologies, I missed 'that made me laugh', though I do think pmsl is nastier.
I'll leave you all to it....

Lisalisa, I ask you again... are you somehow implying that Israel is above criticism because of the horrors inflicted by the Nazis some 60 years ago? (and, - NO, NO, NO , I am NOT trying to minimise that most despicable part of our history).
Collective punishment? Well, this goes on regularly in the occupied territories, from what I read. Suicide bomber kills people - this inevitably means that his/her family home will be demolished. A missile strike is often launched in retaliation.
Oh, and what of a government that kidnaps MPs and government ministers and regularly carries out assassinations? So much for the much vaunted democracy - we are talking here about executions carried out without so much as a trial.
I am angered and ashamed by our government's tacit endorsement of this sort of behaviour.

Ok I'll be honest I did not pmsl but I did LOL
Not in a funny haha way, in a peculiar ironic funny kind of way. I am tired, have early pregnancy laziness and am also preparing dinner, so was typing in haste. It was not eloquently or respectfully worded perhaps.
Let's get back to swapping opinions and information, it can only enrich us as people

Thought this article here seemed to make more sense than the allegation that the Palestinians left because they couldn't stand the Jews...

oh piffle, are you up the duff too? it's horrible in this weather isn't it?

I know what you mean though. I get more wound up by what I see as injustice when hormonal.

I think Israel are wrong in their actions but I admit to being scared by the Arab philosphy of total extermination and terrorism and lack of concern for their children. People who can glorify their sons and daughters who die in terrorist acts against innocents scare the hsit out of me

till now Israel has appeared to be the sensible, westernised voice in the region. the country that has the same sensibilities and respect for life as our western world

maybe its just the 2 cultures can never be brought together in understanding and peace and i have seen many concessions made by the isareel side in the peace talks that have been refused by the palestinians which makes me belive there is no hope for peace between these peoples

"till now Israel has appeared to be the sensible, westernised voice in the region. the country that has the same sensibilities and respect for life as our western world "

are you kidding? Israel has defied UN resolution after UN resolution, it destroys the homes of suicide bombers, it imprisons without trial, hell, it assasinates without trial. This does not say "respect for life" to me.

But anyway, I do know what you mean. the whole suicide bombing thing is terrifying - that people can hate enough to die for it. But I really don't think that the existence of suicide bombers and their fans in any society is justification for the kind of treatment that Israel is and has been dealing out. Lots of suicide bombers have families who don't support it. Not that I think you were saying that, just thought it should be said.

it is a torturous situation for both sides, but i do think on this occasion Israel should be tried for War crimes. Of course they won't be, the USA will just give them more weapons to kill Lebanese children with. israel seem to think their people's lives are worth more than those of Palestine's and Lebanon's.