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ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

589 replies

donnie · 30/06/2006 20:19

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

OP posts:
lisalisa · 24/07/2006 11:38

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bloss · 24/07/2006 11:56

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lisalisa · 24/07/2006 12:19

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bloss · 24/07/2006 12:55

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fuzzywuzzy · 24/07/2006 13:08

The crux of the problem imo is that neither side sees the other as a people, with desires, sorrows, happinesses etc just like themselves....
It's conveniant for the Israelis to paint the Palestinians as terorists and then to use that as an excuse to pen them in like so many animals by a wall, and massacred freely....
It's conveniant for the Palestinians to see the Israelis as their opressors which helps them justify their actions...

Nothing is ever going to be resolved whilst one side insists that they can take as much land as they want because it's their god given right (literally), whilst the other side spends it's time trying to get as many casualties by sending in suicide bombers... all that's going to continue to happen is the widows, the mother's bereft of their children, the children being bought up in hate and the cycle will just continue.....

Btw not all Israelis support the current behaviour of Israel bombing out Lebanon....

wrinklytum · 24/07/2006 13:29

Have been listening to "World at One" on R4.The situation is an absolute tragedy.Lebanese ambulance personnel being bombed.Saw pictures of small children caught up in the conflicton c4 news last night.What a sad crazy world we live in.No idea how it can be resolved (doubt it ever will be).Always brings tears to the eyes when you see such tragedy ie Iraq,Darfur etc.It is always the ordinary innocent people that suffer at the end of the day.

wrinklytum · 24/07/2006 13:37

sorry to sound so cliched it just makes me sad when I hear the news and think of mothers everywhere in conflict stricken areas trying to give their children a stable life amongst all the horror,and here I am worrying about relatively unimportant baby issues !!

saadia · 24/07/2006 14:00

lisalisa when you say "world powers" you mean "colonialist powers" decided that the Palestinians were just insignificant wretches who must make way for the Jewish homeland. Why else did the Arabs have absolutely no say in what happened to their land. The yearning for the land line would not stand up in a court of law. I'm sure native Americans, Aborigines, Maoris, black South Africans would all love to have their land back. But is anyone helping them?

Have you ever heard of the Stern gang and Irgun - are you going to tell me that they were just PR people???

saadia · 24/07/2006 14:01

"They left of their own accord" - do you really believe that? If you do I am stunned.

saadia · 24/07/2006 14:07

And if Jews had such an attachment to the land and returned after thousands of years do you think Palestinians and Arabs will give it up after just 60 years. Arabs and Muslims will bever willingly concede Jerusalem.

wrinklytum · 24/07/2006 14:58

Saadia do you think there could be any resolution other than Palestine being recognised as a free and independent state?I am not playing Devils Advocate I am genuinely interested as I try to understand the situation from different perspectives as I feel my grasp on the Arab/Israeli conflict is a little hazy and I am dying for some proper conversation other than "Lets change your nappy" to dd or "Well done you weed on the big boy toilet" to ds !!!

lisalisa · 24/07/2006 15:07

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lisalisa · 24/07/2006 15:15

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wrinklytum · 24/07/2006 15:27

Saadia and Lisa Lisa.The passion of your e-mails is making me realise that the situation is pretty sad.Both of you are obviously intelligent women but I can see there will never be a meeting of minds here,this thread and your conversations indicate this would be well nigh impossible.You both have very strong beliefs as is evidenced from the thread.I am not a Muslim or Jew or Christian.A bit of an agnostic really.I work with some lovely Muslim people and some lovely Jewish people.I find it so sad that there is such conflict.You are both mothers.Children from both sides are dying.They are innocents.How would it be possible for any kind of resolution to the situation to occur in your opinion???

wrinklytum · 24/07/2006 16:01

Hope I havent killed the thread

saadia · 24/07/2006 16:19

wrinklytum (I can relate to your name), I don't really understand the question in your 2.58 post.

Yes you are right, I do feel strongly about this but only because I honestly can't bear injustice. I do believe that the British Mandate had no jurisdiction to allow for the creation of Israel. I hated apartheid, I hate what happened in East Timor, I hated communism and I really hated the way that Britain, France, Italy and Holland and Belgium treated their colonies - they were utterly brutal. The mentality at the time was that all non-whites were savages and were not equal to whites. They had to be controlled and subjugated and this is the background to Mid-East history.

The same mentality pervades the New World Order we are seeing. Look at Iraq - Abu Ghraib - look at Afgahnistan, look at how the US is sitting in Saudi. The people who claim to believe in freedom of speech and human rights are chronically unable to pratice what they preach.

Anyway, I do accept that Israel is a fait accompli but I really do not see any way forward though unless the US now shows some even-handedness. Israel is there now and I can understand that it will do whatever it has to to survive, whatever the cost in human lives. Those are the rules of war and it has conquered the territory and this is what countries do when they have acquired territory - the survival of the fittest.

But I cannot stomach the US' role in all this. The vast majority of UN member states are calling for a cease-fire, but the US and UK are blocking this. It is as though Israel is exempt from international law. They do not comply with UN resolutions. They punish entire villages for the actions of one person. They are building settlements on disputed territory.

lisalisa Muslims used to pray towards Jerusalem before they were told to pray towards Mecca.

wrinklytum · 24/07/2006 16:37

Saadia it is probably my ignorance leading to the misunderstanding of my question.I am genuinely quite ignorant on the initial reasons for the conflict.I remember that the words "Arab/ israeli conflict following me through childhood on the news.I should know more.I realise that both the Jews and Moslems believe Jerusalem is "Theirs".I know that it is important to both religions.I really wish to know more as I feel like a complete ignoramus.I have read a little more of the thread and am trying to understand.I too hate injustice and as you rightly say many atrocities were committed by western european nations during the colonisation of Africa and the Americas.I hate Blairs pandering to Bush.I honestly know nobody who agreed with what happened in Iraq.Abu Ghraib was awful.Dehumanising other human beings is awful.I am just trying to understand.

saadia · 24/07/2006 16:46

wrinklytum I think there are two versions of how Israel came into being and I guess you have to just research and decide which one you believe.

But whichever one you believe it's all looking utterly hopeless ATM.

lisalisa · 24/07/2006 16:46

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LucyJu · 24/07/2006 16:48

Might I also add that Israel doesn't "need" suicide bombers because it has such a vast arsenal of weaponry including fighter jets etc. (not saying that I think suicide bombers are justified, btw).
And before Israel tries to take the moral high ground, can you please explain how collective punishment, bombing of civilians trying to flee Southern Lebanon (as instructed), bulldozing of homes, destruction of bridges, power stations etc is justifiable. I believe that many of these actions could be defined as war crimes.

Piffle · 24/07/2006 16:49

Muslim claims to Jerusalem
The third most sacred city in Islam is Jerusalem, which was the original qibla (direction of prayer) before it was switched to Mecca. Jerusalem is revered because in Muslim tradition, Muhammad both miraculously traveled there by night and ascended into heaven from Jerusalem. The two most important Muslim sites in Jerusalem are the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

For all of us who are arguing with differing points of few, unlikely ever to reconcile...
Facts:
The rest of the World oppose Israels excessive strikes, except the US... and the UK, even though everyone within the UK goverment bar TB speaks openly about the overuse of excessive force.

The UN chap yesterday uttered possible war crimes when touring Beirut. The Independent today uttered war crimes. There is universal condemnation. Not of Israels right to protect themselves against Hizbollah and attacks from terrorist groups.
What is evident is that YES Israel does have the right to attack Hizbollah, after Hizbollah created the situation (for what end we will never understand)
But no one understnads why Israel needs to flatten so much of Lebanaon.
People in Haifa and other areas have been targetted, the people their scream of rockets and fear.
~In Lebanon no one interviewed screams with anger, they are in grief, decimated, children, entire tower blocks of dense civilian areas flattened.
Mosques destroyed, convoys of fleeing refugee civilians (at the advice of IDF) bombed.

The fleeing Shia muslims are being forced to seek shelter in Sunni areas, which could create further troubles as Hizbollah is predominantly the domain of the Shia muslims.

And the irony of Ms Rice over there preaching peace and restraint as the US hurry through an order of new smart bombs for Israel.
Give me strength.
This is not just about Hizbollah and it is apparent to anyone who reads with an open mind on this current conflict.

lisalisa · 24/07/2006 16:50

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Alipiggie · 24/07/2006 16:50

It is obvious from the emotional discussions on there that there will never ever be a good solution for the Israel/Palestinian debacle. The UN needs to overule the US and UK and send in a peaceforce now to save hundreds more innocent lives from being slaughtered. Then the UN needs to search for a strong impartial negotiator to go in broker peace. Keep the US and UK out of it. I can never condone terrorism any more than the needless bombing of Beirut or Haifa now. This is far to scary a situation for us all to ignore.

lisalisa · 24/07/2006 17:01

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SenoraPostrophe · 24/07/2006 17:05

lisallisa

now I stopped reading there at the bit where you talked about the lebanese govt having members of hamas. it doesn't, it has 1 cabinet member who is a member of hizbullah.

but that's beside the point. I think you'll find that the vast majority of lebanese people didn't vote for him, just as the majority of british people didn't vote for Blair. But even if they did is how you vote justification for having your home/workplace/local hospital etc bombed now? blimey. and it is collective punishment, whatever Isreal chooses to call it.

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