ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

But Bibliophile, have you read the history of how Israel was created, do you know that they terrorised Palestinians into leaving? Do you know that the West carved up the Middle East for its own gain? Do you really think that the displaced Palestinians said "oh please take our land we would love to be refugees and for our children to grow up in squalid refugee camps".

I honestly do not believe that anyone here is anti-Semitic. I believe that the way that Israel was founded was unjust and I hate injustice. Britain had no right to give away that land.

I believe Jews deserve a homeland but not at the expense of taking someone else's.

So do do you campaign for Jordan to give up its claims to Palestine? Because Jordan 'owns' most of the land that was known in modern times as Palestine and owns it in peace, comfort and prosperity, with very little thought as to the plight of modern Palestinians, as far as I can see. And the Jews have an historical interest in the land that certainly pre-dates modern Palestine.
It seems to me very much in the interests of neighbouring Arab states to keep Palestinians in a state of abject poverty and misery as a propaganda coup, while, of course, funding murderous terrorists at the same time.
I do not exempt the British or other Europeans from blame. The disgusting blocking of refugees from Nazi Germain which led to thousands, maybe millions of deaths, could only fuel the need and and desire of Jews for a safe homeland.

I am particularly appalled by the suggestion that Israelis should go to live in the US. Yeah, like we'd all love it if we were told that we were no longer allowed to live in the country of our birth and had to live in Kansas. That is just so racist. Akin to saying that black people should go back to where they came from.

Jordan is not actually attacking anyone ATM and Palestinians live as equal citizens there. And Jerusalem is not in Jordan.

arghhh. stop with the anti-semetic arguments ffs. israeli government has nothing to do with jewishness. it's like it's racist to criticise robert mugabe. shame on you all.

saadia you beat me too it. I was just going to say that the Palestinians can live peacefully in Jordan as it is an Arab Country - like minded people living together. Sorry but religion has too much to answer for in this area - it's been fought over for far too long.

doh. hello bibliophile, what do you think has been done to the palestinians!

oh the irony!

So do you think Jews should be displaced again? Pushed into the sea perhaps? Or are they simply the only people on earth who don't deserve a homeland?

and you may say that the Israeli government had nothing to do with Jews but the many of hte arguments against Israel (they 'stole' land, they secretly control America with their money) are profoundly racist.

The Kurds don't have a homeland either.

There is no racism or anti-Semitism here. You keep saying that but choose to completely ignore the facts about how Israel came into being.

And I don't see Jordan giving back the land it was given under the British mandate. It is, also, a far bigger bit of land than Israel was granted. Of course other Arabs live there in peace - they don't make it a matter of principle to destroy Jordan and push it back into the sea. Do you think for one second that nice King Hussein would tolerate that for a moment?

What 'facts' am I ignoring, exactly?

The people who make up the Jordanian population were already there. There was mass migration into Israel from Europe and elsewhere and displacement of Palestinians. It really isn't the same thing.

And why was there this 'mass immigration'? It wouldn't be anything to do with the near genocide of the Jews around the world, would it? YOu know, the piles of little children's shoes outside the gas chambers? The vast pits of starved, tortured men and women and babies? What an extraordinarily unkind thing to say. Where were these poor buggers supposed to go? Anyway, in the 1920 Arabs in Palestine started pogroms against the Jews in the area. At least one of the leaders of the Arab revolt against plans for Jewish homeland went on to support the Nazis and set up shooting parties against helpless Jews in Europe. The Arab League subsequently declared war on Israel after partitioning of the land, in which the Palestinians got the lions share of hte land. A seige was laid to Jerusalem in which water and food was cut off - must have felt familiar to the Jews, don't you think? Then Egypt & Syria et al declared war on Israel.
Yes, Israel has not been a perfect state - far from it - but it has been provoked over and over again. It is easy to cast Israel as the pantomime villain here, but, I think, totally inaccurate.

I think to see the development of Israel as somehow separate from a/the presence of Jews in the area for thousands of years in the face of often terrible oppression and b/the worldwide anti-semetism which reached a peak in the Nazi genocide is to wilfully refuse to accept historical context and human motivation.
Does anyone really claim that Israel was ever accepted or welcomed in any form by its neighbours?
I think what is happening at the moment is appalling on both sides. It is terrible to see the corpses of children in particular and I dislike very much the rightwing nature of many Israeli leaders. I also think this horrible stuff about greedy Jews is also absolutely shocking.

So, Bibliophile, the Arabs should pay the price for the way the Nazis treated the Jews?
And Israel should be exempt from any criticism because of the historic persecution of Jews?

Message withdrawn

no the real irony here is that when they are judged god will tell then of his tears when the chilren diesd and how they either stood by and watched or activley engaged in the hatred between the two sides. do we all have a different god? what kind of god would be pleased at the killing maiming and torturung of innocent people.

Biblophile, you are looking for racism where there is none. I never said that the Jews should go back from whre they came. How could I? They didn't come from anywhere they can call their hom apart from the generation that today come from Israel.

Which ever individual thought up the idea of giving away a predominantly muslim country in the middle of loads of big muslim countries, to the Jews in the 1940's must have been bonkers. It was never going to make the surrounding countries happy was it.

Once again I am very ignorant of lots of facts regarding this, but if I had a young familyliving in Israel and coold cut my losses and run, I think I would. The muslims/arabs are never ever going to give that land up. And as they outnumber the Jewish people living there by about ??? to 1, my money is not on the Israelis winning this. The will just be annihilated. So tell me what the Feck is the point of it all. It's just going to drag the rest of us into g the rest of us into a world war kicking & scraming that none of us want.

Bibliophile anyone with an ounce of humanity in them would have nothing but utter sorrow, heartbreak and anger for the appalling and unspeakable way that Jews were treated in Nazi Germany. It is one of the worst episodes in the world's history. I cannot bear to read some of the stories about people who survived and lost family and friends. I cannot begin to imagine what their lives must have been like.

But, as LucyJu asked, why exactly were Palestinians expected to make reparations for this???

so was anyone heartened by the observer report yesterday that a british govt representative (foreign office minister?/ envoy can't remember) has come out and condemned the bombing of lebanon and that downing street has not contradicted that.

anyone incredibly pissed off by the further report that there is unlikely to be any further distancing until at least friday when blair meets bush...how many hundreds more will be dead by then?

god blair would be a national hero (well, perhaps not, but yo uknow what i mean) if he were to publically take a stand against US policy.....

I think I would probably keel over in shock if Blair ever opposed Bush. I always thought Blair was fairly intelligent so can't fathom why he is blindly following a dimwit like Bush.

It would be a big deal i think. the americans love blair so they might listen rather than automatically labelling him whatever the british equivalent of a cheese-eating surrender monkey is (remember that's what they called the french).

I'm a mug. I always hope that he's going to do it: now that he is nearly at the end of his prime ministeral career, knowing that it would be historic moment (he's big on being remembered isn't he)...and he never ever does...he always just looks vaguely awkwards and sucks up to him in an excruciatingly embarrassing way.

I have lost what little remained of respect for Blair after Iraq now. I can't even watch Bush on tv because I get symptoms similar to food food-poisoning.