ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

Ps good work with the research donnie.

if anyone is interested the stop the war coalition are organising a protest this weekend. details here . I want to weep when I think about it all. weep and holler and scream.

Thanks hatwoman.
I feel the same way.
Perhaps we should organise a 'mumsnetters against the destruction of lebanon' banner.

"Just simply that all good muslims are taught that those who do not accept Allah are either to be converted or killed"

Amazing that in all my 35 years I have only met the very bad Muslims then.

i have to admit that I'm not sure if I'm going yet - need to work on dh as it will put a spanner in our plans for the weekend (even if I go alone). dh feels the same way as me but probably less keen to shout about it.

I've so far resisted temptation to stick my oar into this one but here's my tuppenceworth.

The outline of things is that Israel and Lebanon are at war, seemingly because of two Israeli soldiers who were taken hostage about a month ago. Threats have been made, followed by small retaliations that have escalated into Israel and Lebanon bombing each other. Innocent people die, this is war. Newt Gingrich said on Newsnight on Tuesday that World War 3 had already started, and this is why; Syria and Iran will join the fight on the side of Lebanon. The US and UK will retaliate on the side of Israel. Europe will side with the US and UK, though France is a bit of a wild card, especially as it is a nuclear power. When North Korea and China take sides that?s when things really get interesting - the thing to do when they take sides is paint your windows white, stock up on bottled water and tinned goods (though don?t forget the tin opener) and keep tuned in to the battery-powered radio that you bought along with the rest of your survival kit.

Good luck!

That's hideously depressing ginmummy Let us pray it won't come to that.

Hideously depressing, but it is the way things are going. Sorry.

It sounds silly and will never happen, but the only way this war could possibly be put on hold for another hundred years is to give Israel back to Palestine and relocate Israeli Jews to the US. IMO it would save so much bloodshed. Obviously, any Israelis reading this will yell at me, but it could be the only way to stop Israel and her people being wiped out completely as I reckon someone will nuke it before long. The East/west divide will still be there and no doubt something else will come along to cause a war at some point.

Obviously this will never ever happen, but I think that beginning the state of Israel was possibly the beginning of world war 3. This is only my my very muddled opinion btw and I would love to be a bit more enlightened, simplistically though.

If I was an Israeli, born & bred I would fight for my country as I would never have know any different. The younger generations have only known Israel so I guess they must have as much passion as the young Palestinians have. Its a dreadful situation.

I was trying to find out what percentage of Jewish money controls the US and most of the sites I looked at pretty much state that Jews own the US financially. Please correct me if I am totally wrong about this but this in itself speaks volumes about how the US will proceed.

Ginmummy, that truly sent shudders down my spine as I agree that this may happen

ginmummy that was my supposition earlier, if Iran and Syria get involved it will just go massively wrong. If Iran have any nuclear capability whatsoever then I'm not sure
Hey never mind St Condi is heading there today she will sort it all out.
Yeah right.
Where is Bill Clinton he knows damn sight more about this conflict than GWB and is a lot better at squeezing leaderships.
If the UK sides with the US in any future defence of Israel I'm leaving. Also you would presume that it would have the capacity to split Europe again, I mean could "Europe" really fight for Israel, there are countries within with enormous muslim populations!
I think the diplomatic work to keep Iran and Syria out will ne vital. I'm not sure I trust this job to GWB's government tbh or Tony Blair as he is obviously 2ic to Bush.
I think this encapsulates everyones fears
For Israelis and for Palestinians. It's going to go beyond land borders... It's in no way about returning 2 soldiers. It is about Israel wiping out Hizbollah and sadly they are being so take no prisoners about it that 50 innocent people are being killed every day as the cost.
Sorry that should be collateral damage.
War sucks. Both sides have gone too far. While my sympathies have lain with the Palestinians for decades in this conflict I just want to give up. I feel very sorry for the Lebanese people who have worked so hard since Israel and finally Syria pulled out...

UCM - we came up with that very same idea last night!

Actually, if you go back far enough, Abraham (as the father of the Jews) lived in Ur so maybe that should be their dedicated state. Only problem is, Ur is modern day Iraq.....

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What is true is that the US senate has many Jewish members. The Jewish are very influential in the modern US. I do not know about any anti semitism within the US? In order to avoid like Bloss says potentially libelous generalistations is is better to say that the US and Israel enjoy a close and powerful financial and military bond.
I mean most people would not associate the UK as an anti semitic place, but there have been many cases of gravestone debasing, attacks and anti semitic graffiti and towards Jewish schools too.

I think that to be a nation with such a persecution complex must lead to very different ideology. And it is a reality for them, given the Holocaust.
That said it does not excuse them turning into the middle east tyrants...
But to understnad how imbued this conflict is within both sides, you have to grapple with two very different histories indeed.

My reasoning for suggesting the US is because after Israel, there are more Jewish people there than anywhere else so it seemed that they would get a bigger welcome there really. Apart from that, no reason. As I said earlier, my views are very simplistic.

bluejelly, let's also start a 'mnetters against rocket attacks on northern Israel'- while we're at it?

Gawd I have peeped a little at the thread but cannot keep up with politics and bombs. How can western rulers overcome Iraq and Iran when Israel and Palestine (etc) have been at it forever.

Religion

You could also do a google on the comparitive dmage capabilities of 3000 F 16 air mission and 1800 F 16 air bomings of various targets in the Lebanon, compared to 600 katyusha rockets with an averge distance of 25 miles.
Thats not to say that Hizbollah should be doing it, we're not defending Hizbollah on this thread honestly.
What we are doing is discussing that Israels reaction seems a little... OTT.
I'm at the stage now where I think both wrong sides wrong wrong wrong wrong.
Could anyone enlighten me as to what Hizbollah hoped to gain byt kidnapping the 2 soldiers? Did they really think Israel would just do a straight swap after they attacked Israeli soldiers within Israels borders?
So then you think they must have expected something like this...
????
What is the end goal for Hizbollah out of all of this?

Just to add something else to the mix, my opinion is that the Iranians have their own agenda - they are Shia and most Arabs are Sunni - so I wouldn't be surprised if their ultimate aim in all this was to perpetuate the conflict for their own ends rather than to return land to the Palestinians.

Why is it disturbing Bloss. If what I read is true, it would explain why the US will back Israel to the hilt. Also there are not many Israeli families without connections in the US.

Piffle, a death is a death. I'm sure the bereaved families on either side are not remotely interested in the comparative damage capability of the weapon that killed their loved-one.

That's a very good question,IMO, what do Hizbollah hope to ultimately achieve? Also, Israel must surely know that it can never destroy Hizbollah? No matter how many of their stronghold areas they destroy.

UCM. Don't wory about asking 'simple' questions. I've felt like that whilst following this thread and am aware that my knowledge of the history of this conflict is very limited.

Hopefully those countries aiming to "nuke" Israel have enough common sense to realise that you cannot do so without creating huge damage to the neighbouring countries - and therefore don't do it but I am not optimistic at all.

Someone mentioned way down the thread that they thought the West tends to support Israel from racist motives but I don't think that people generallly think of Israelis being somehow "whiter" than their neighbours. I think it's more a matter of form of government. The Israeli govt is democratically elected unlike the despotic dictatorships which surround it so it's easier to relate to the organisation of the Israeli state (and probably easier for our govts to work with them) than with say Jordan or Syria. Don't think it has anything to do with racial prejudice towards Arab nations TBH.

Bubble: maybe the banner should read
'Mumsnetters agains the destruction of Lebanon and the occasional strafing of Northern Israel by third rate rockets'.
Sorry am being facetious.
Obviously am against violence on either side.

Sssandy the Palestinian government is also democratically elected.

since when has Jordan been under a ' despotic dictatorship' ?