ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

Probably because they would hauled up into it on a regular basis.

China, Russia and the US all have deeply dodgy human rights records too. Am not singling Israel out.

"Personally I don't have a problem with the US funding Israel - if they didn't I assume that it would've been wiped of the map by now - and if you've ever visited you'd know that would be a tragedy."

but chestnutter it seems the point that you (and many others) don't seem to get is that Palestine has already been wiped off the map, and that is also a tragedy.

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lisalisa I think if you search you will find extremism and hatred on both sides. There are many on the Arab side who are highly offensive IMO WRT Jews and equally there are many on the Israeli side who express similar hatred towards Palestinians and Arabs.

The Middle East conflict is a huge problem and I do not expect it to be resolved in my lifetime. But Jews have lived among Arabs in Arab states for a very long time and as far as I am aware before the creation of Israel they co-existed peacefully. This for me is the real tragedy - that a conflict and a hatred has been created among people who previously believed in live and let live.

Would you blame Black South Africans for hating the White south Africans during apartheid Lisalisa?

The way Israeli Arabs/Palestinians are treated is appalling. If I was discrimated against like that I would hate my oppressors too.

Anyway as I said before there are a lot of Israeli Jews who believe in peace. It's not as simple as Jew vs Muslim or Muslim vs Jew.

Lisalisa, Ariel sharron has made hateful comments about Muslims, I'll post them up if you like.
Regarding the excavation beneath the Masjid al Aqsa, it has been carried out by the Israelis the Palestininas have marched and plead and begged for it to be stopped. It hasn't but the Mosque still stands, and the mosques itself is closed to worshippers at a drop.
I've not been, would love to go, but I've heard of too many Muslims being detained for the fact of their religion. One such Muslim was informed that there's no such thing as a Muslim tourist, he was only allowed entry when he was given a reference from the UK by his boss...an orthodox Jew. By that rote maybe I'll ask my mums neighbours (the husbands a Rabbi).

As Saadia says both sides have behaved equally hatefully but the Arabs get more media attention the Israeli's don't.

Unfortunately I think it's wrong to blame all the Arab anti-Semitism on the foundation of Israel, though there's no doubt it has made it a lot worse. Life was becoming increasingly uncomfortable for Jews in a number of Arab states before that and IIRC between half a million and a million of the 10 million or so Jewish Israelis who founded the country were refugees not from Europe but from elsewhere in the Middle East.
I am not excusing Israel's behaviour at all but I do wonder where all the Arab nations who want to wipe Israel off the map (and to some extent the Western commentators who are happy to describe Israel as a 'cancer') expect the Jewish population all to go.

I despise the actions of the Israeli govt but do not want to wipe Israel off the map.

A two state solution seems reasonable to me and there are lots of Israelis and Arabs who agree.

Bombing Lebanon back twenty years, as the Israeli government so nicely put it, seems totally unreasonable.

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It is not Israel's creation that I see as justifying hatred.
It is Israel's recent and continuing behaviour.
They have killed over 300 Lebanese civilians, displaced 500,000 people from their homes (UN figures).
For what? Because two Israeli soldiers who had crossed over on Lebanese/Syrian land were kidnapped.
Disproportionate doesn't cover it.

As for July the 7th, I am from London and narrowly missed being blown up in the london bombings.
Seeing Palestinians dancing on the streets didn't upset me in the slightest.
I am sophisticated enough to recognise where they are coming from and why.

lisalisa I'm not denying that there was anti-Semitism before Israel. There have always been moronic bigots in all parts of the world. Jews suffered appallingly in Europe, even before the Holocaust and the Church was also implicated in this. All people have at one time or another persecuted other people. I'm not trying to minimise this but you seem to be trying to paint a picture of Jewish people suffering at the hands of Arabs and of course this is abhorrent, but that is history. Tragically it's not unusual thing for minorities everywhere to have suffered.

The Israelis should negotiate with Hamas. They are the elected government. The Israelis keep arresting Hamas elected officials though, which I guess makes negotiation difficult ( unless you count 'negotiation the mossad way').

Who cares if Hamas doesn't recognise Israel. Israel doesn't recognise Palestine.

Very rently Hamas have said they will consider a two state solution, and recognise Israel but it relates directly to the return of very specific portions of land, the stopping of new settlements which are ongoing as we type.
The fact that israel have built a massive wall around Jerusalem indicates their intent on land dividing and Jerusalem is not just sacred to the Jewish people after all...

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lisalisa I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish about Muslims wanting to convert or kill. If that is the case then why is not all of India Muslim - they were ruled by Mughals.

If Jews are so hated by Muslims then why is it that marriage between Muslim men and Jewish women is permitted, why is it that kosher meat is permissible. Muslims and Jews have a lot in common.

What I'm saying is that yes there may have been Arab anti-Semitism, but are you telling me that Jews have always loved Arabs and have never wronged anyone. European anti-Semitism has always been far far worse than anything that the Arabs came up with.

If you look at things rationally from a neutral standpoint you will see that Palestinians were forcibly terrorised into leaving their homes and made refugees - this was wrong. Israel has never complied with UN resolutions regarding it borders - this is wrong. Anti-semitism has nothing to do with it.

Yes England did negotiate/meet with the IRA as far back as the 1970's - in secrecy of course as it would have been an election/leadership breaker.
It is with the militants that you have to deal with, Hamas are the elected rulers of the Palestinians, the Palestinians oviously view Hamas as the people who will get them what they need.
How on earth can you make good a ceasefire or permanent peace without consulting the elected representatives though?
Yes it is hard. Reconciliation is a long drawn out and multi generational process. It can only begin with both sides being approached as equals. Both sides having their needs evaluated and discussed openly.
Both sides have committed atrocious crimes against each other for decades. Neither can play oneupmanship nor total innocence, not self defence. Solving this crisisI think would have far reaching and only positive influence on the Al Qaeda front...

Saadia - Israel is frequently accused of "breaching UN resolutions" but this simply isn't true:

Resolution 242, drafted after long and exhaustive debate, purposefully calls for Israel to pull back from ?territories,? and specifically not from ?the territories? or ?all the territories?, captured in June 1967. In other words, the resolution calls for a withdrawal from an undefined portion of territory, and only to the extent required by "secure and recognised boundaries" in order for Israel to establish defensible borders. There is no demand on Israel to withdraw from all the territories captured in 1967. In fact, Lord Caradon, Britain?s UN representative at the time and the principal author of Resolution 242, said that, ?It would have been wrong to demand that Israel return to its positions of June 4, 1967?That?s why we didn?t demand that the Israelis return to them and I think we were right to do so?. Furthermore, the resolution requires "respect for and acknowledgment of?[every State's] right to live in peace within secure and recognised boundaries". The Palestinians have never recognised Israel's right to peace and security.

Resolution 338, adopted in 1973 following the Yom Kippur War, appealed for a ceasefire and a return to negotiations for a peaceful settlement of the conflict as called for in Resolution 242. Eugene Rostow, US Undersecretary of State for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 and a key player in the production of Resolution 242, wrote that, ?Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 rule that the Arab states and Israel must make peace, and that when ?a just and lasting peace? is reached in the Middle East, Israel should withdraw from some but not all of the territory it occupied in the course of the 1967 war. The Resolutions leave it to the parties to agree on the terms of peace.?

Israel fully accepts all these resolutions, and they have served as the basis to every peace attempt that Israel has made in terms of working towards the establishment of a fair and durable peace as envisioned by these resolutions.

... and I agree that not all Muslims want to convert or kill, of course. I assume Lisalisa was referring to an extremist interpretation of Islam? And I know there are differences too between the Sufi and Sunni interpretations (but that's where my knowledge ends!!)

could you alos provide the explanations for the othe 51 they are breaking pls chestnutter

well, I am still waiting for comments about the terrorist roll call of Israeli Prime Ministers I described yesterday - Begin, Sharon etc. I would really like to know exactly how and why they are / were intrinsically different from Hamas and Hezbollah leaders. And let's not go down the 'they were elected' route as that is a non starter.

So come on....Stern gang? Irgun? proven bombers elected to the role of PM??? I'd love to hear a justification here.

BTW Piffle agree with everything you have said.

I have read reports today that say 45% of the casualties in Lebanon are children.

It won't solve the conflict but if people want to do something now.

This, from the Save the Children website....

Save the Children is currently supporting at least 2,000 families in the region and aims to reach over 20,000 people over the coming months.

The crisis in Lebanon is especially difficult for children who are fleeing with their families from their homes or being trapped with no freedom of movement and with no access to basic supplies and exposed to physical danger and traumatic experiences.

Thousands of children and families have fled their homes and are now taking shelter in schools and office buildings. Approximately 500,000 people are estimated to be internally displaced in Lebanon, including 200, 000 children. Others in Gaza are trapped in their homes without sufficient food, water, hygiene and access to medicine. The evolving crisis is putting hundreds of thousands of children at risk of serious injury, emotional distress, malnutrition and is preventing them from continuing their schooling.

Youi can make a donation by calling the Emergency Appeal Line - 0800 8148 148

www.britains-smallwars.com/palestine/kidnap.htm

in case no one knows about Menachim Begin.

I have been reading some of the Zionist websites about Irgun in which Begin and Abraham Stern are venerated as freedom fighters , defenders of the faith etc... absolutely no different from the way that Hamas and Hezbollah leaders are venerated by their followers.

"the fact that the Israelis have elected these men as their leaders, while speaking volumes about the Israelis themselves" ....sound familiar lisalisa? come on, let's hear it.

Lisalisa you obviously don't know any muslims. I know and work with plenty, none of whom have ever tried to kill or convert me.
What planet are you on?

And the reason why the west is villified is perfectly obvious to me. It backs agressive israeli governments to the hilt, invades Iraq and turns the country upside down, turns a blind eye to the slaughter of muslims in Chechnya.

Obviously I am not advocating jihad against the west but there is a way to criticise these things without supporting terrorism, suicide bombing etc.
And that doesn't make me anti-Israeli or anti-semitic. Nor does it mean that I am belittling the suffering of the jews in history.
As I think Saadia said, minorities have been persecuted throughout history. It's abhorrent whether it is nazis doing it to jews, hutus doing it to tutsis or Israelis doing it to Palestinians.