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ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

589 replies

donnie · 30/06/2006 20:19

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

OP posts:
saadia · 21/07/2006 10:01

I think it also serves the US to have an ally in the region.

donnie · 21/07/2006 10:02

I am STILL waiting for those pro Israeili posters here to tell me why it is Ok that Israel has elected proven terrorists to the role of Prime Minister. ssandy perhaps you could tell me since you show concern for despots. Plus the fact that Hamas is a legitimate elected political organisation.
I ask yet again - who is the real terrorist?

OP posts:
UCM · 21/07/2006 10:05

Thanks Bubble99, I am always aware that I am not much of a match for the boffins on here and I need everything spelt out .

bloss · 21/07/2006 10:08

Message withdrawn

bubble99 · 21/07/2006 10:10

Thing is, bluejelly, the 'third rate' rockets are improving. Weapons analyists (impartial, as far as I'm aware) believe that Hizbollah are soon to aquire rockets which will have the capability to bomb Tel Aviv. A 145 mile range will hardly be 'third rate'.

Who is funding/arming Hizbollah? I'm not clear on this. I've heard George Galloway dismissing reports that they are funded by Iran and Syria, but I thought that this was the case. Anyone know?

bloss · 21/07/2006 10:11

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KathyMCMLXXII · 21/07/2006 10:11

UCM, I'm a bit freaked out by your implication that Jews have no right to live in the Middle East. Is that really what you mean?

BTW I think Saadia is spot on about the agenda of the Iranians (and some other Arab nations). For many people Israel is clearly a genuine cause of grievance, but for others it is a convenient excuse. The Middle East is an enormous area with many different traditions, governments, motivations.... It's just not as simple as 'Arabs hate the Jews/the West because of Israel'.

dinosaur · 21/07/2006 10:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

SSSandy · 21/07/2006 10:12

donnie, for me Hamas is most definitely a terrorist organisation, whether or not democratically elected, it's aims and proclaimed methods of achieving those ends are terrorist. You're entitled to your views, of course, but I am also entitled to mine and I am not obliged to agree with you.

saadia · 21/07/2006 10:13

donnie I don't think you will get answer to that question - it will all just be swept under the carpet just as it is in RL.

bloss · 21/07/2006 10:15

Message withdrawn

bluejelly · 21/07/2006 10:17

If Hamas are terrorists then so are the Israeli government. It's state terrorism but it's still terrorising the Palestinian population

puddle · 21/07/2006 10:17

Re: what hezbollah hope to achieve - they have kidnapped the Israeli soldiers hoping to exchange them for Palestinian and Hezbollah prisoners. This has happened before when hundreds of prisoners were exchanged for one Israeli civilian.

There is also the theory that they are testing the new Israeli prime minister to see how he reacts, also that they are acting with Iran to take the pressure of Iran's nuclear developments prior to the G8 meeting.

I am so ashamed of Blair today for not backing the calls for an immediate ceasefire.

I'm going to post the emergency appeal number for Save the children again

You can make a donation by calling the Emergency Appeal Line - 0800 8148 148

bloss · 21/07/2006 10:17

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bluejelly · 21/07/2006 10:21

Hamas is divided between a militant wing and a political leadership who have no experience of political leadership.
They were only elected in Feb.
And since then have been under economic seige, daily shelling and regular assasination attacks and their MPs have been arrested.

WHilst they haven't renounced violence ( would you?, really???) they haven't orchestrated any major attacks on Israel.

dinosaur · 21/07/2006 10:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

saadia · 21/07/2006 10:24

I think things are a lot more complicated than we know.

For example I don't understand why Arab states do not use the oil weapon to infuence the US - if they united and stood up to the US then surely America would have to take a more even-handed approach. Plainly the Arabs are at fault for being so dis-united and disorganised, but I suppose Saudi Arabia needs the US for its own defences, but then conflicts among Arabs are to some extent engineered by the West - the Gulf War for example.

But discussions aside, Lebanon is still being destroyed and it is not even their war. The fact remains that while it has come to foreigners having to be evacuated the US and UK are stubbornly refusing to show any drop of humanity - that is utterly shameful.

It all reminds me so much of George Orwell's 1984 - twisting the truth and rewriting history.

bluejelly · 21/07/2006 10:24

My 6 yo dd was surprised to hear on the radio that tony blair was backing israel.
She asked me why
So I explained about poodles.
She thought it was hilarious

bubble99 · 21/07/2006 10:26

But, bluejelly, why shouldn't they renounce violence?

saadia · 21/07/2006 10:26

bloss those people continued with their terrorist activities until they got what they wanted - Hamas etc have not yet got what they want.

Caligula · 21/07/2006 10:29

"I think we're heading into blood libel territory soon"

What, just because UCM has noticed how much of the US power structures are owned by Jewish interests who may therefore be supposed to have a vested interest in supporting Israel? (Although it must be remembered that many American Jews - as well as Israeli Jews for that matter - do not support Israel's current attitudes and policies.) It's very bad-mannered to notice it of course, but you can't deny it's there. And of course it explains why America will never ever, condemn any of Israel's actions, however unjustified. And if no-one is ever allowed to mention it without being accused of being anti-semitic and being a promoter of the Jewish World Conspiracy view of the world, then honest debate is simply shut down. In the Arab world, they are allowed to notice (and yes, sometimes, make outrageous and truly blood-libellous allegations on the strength of it) and the fact that we won't mention it is another pointer to them of our dishonesty in debate about Israel.

The real tragedy of all this, is that for a large number of Arabs, the whole "let's throw Israel into the sea" approach was a thing of the past. Many Palestinians, Jordanians etc., accept the fact that Israel is now there. The attitude among younger people was beginning to be a pragmatic OK, the foundation of the Israeli state wasn't well done, but get over it, it's time to move on, we have to go from where we are, not from where we'd like to be. And if only Israel could behave proportionately, that attitude would become the norm and the two sides would be able to come to some kind of modus vivendi. I just feel that when Israel goes demented every ten or twenty years or so, untrammelled by the need to conform to world norms, it raises yet another generation who go back to the hopeless "let's throw them all back into the sea" mentality. It is a tragedy for Israel itself, that it is doing this.

bloss · 21/07/2006 10:29

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KathyMCMLXXII · 21/07/2006 10:29

Saadia, the oil thing - might it just be that the oil nations need the US to buy their oil as much as (or even more than) the US needs them to sell it to them, so they simply can't afford to use it as a weapon?
(The interesting thing will be to see how things change when China develops into more of an alternative market.)

bloss · 21/07/2006 10:30

Message withdrawn

saadia · 21/07/2006 10:31

Yes Kathy I think you're right - the richer Arab economies are tied in with the US.