The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

wearing a Burka is an overt statement saying this is 'us' and you are 'them'

So are all sorts of other clothing/symbols. And its up to me whether I choose to treat another human being as 'them'.

What would it achieve?
Other than a feeling of 'That's shown them that this is our country and we won't be doing with any of that Sharia stuff here' ?
Not much, but that might be enough to make it a policy.
Look how badly we deal with the idea of being in Europe, suspicion and paranoia about being ruled from Brussels. Invisible walls going up all over the place.

Why do so many muslim people in the UK wear clothes associated with Pakistan/ Saudi etc? They can dress modestly in western clothing, but choose not to. Why is this?

Are they showing where their allegiance lies?

I don't care who wears what on their face and skin. However, there are situations where having your face covered will cause issues.travelling with a passport - you need to identify the face. Being arrested - you have to be properly identified. Younger years learning - young children learn language aided by facial expressions.

I wouldn't at all mind having a lecturer with a full face veil at university level. I'm adult enough to have a full grasp of my communication.

People who are lip reading need to see lips.

We all have to engage with 'authority' and part of this is that I have some kind of recourse should something go wrong. In that case I want to also be able to physically identify a person. Anyone who has any potential power over me - well I want to see their face to identify them should I need to.

That apart, I don't really care.

I'd assume anyone wearing a face masking outfit has chosen themselves to do so and therefore will also fully accept that they may not able to gain employment in certain professions.

Maybe that's just what they feel comfortable in? What would you dress in if you lived in the middle east or India?

Hindus and Sikhs quite often wear clothes 'associated with india' - no-one nowadays seems bothered about seeing people in saris and turbans. (unless they're outstandingly ignorant thugs mistaking them for Muslims.).

I'd assume anyone wearing a face masking outfit has chosen themselves to do so and therefore will also fully accept that they may not able to gain employment in certain professions.

Yes - that's entirely reasonable.

However, there are situations where having your face covered will cause issues.travelling with a passport - you need to identify the face. Being arrested - you have to be properly identified

yes - and that happens. (the woman in the court case had been IDd by a policewoman and mugshotted - no issue there)

There are countries in the world where veil wearers are welome. Why not have the UK as a place where people who don't like face coverings can live without being confronted by them?

Veils can't be a requirement of islam or else muslims would not have come to this country (not wearing them) in the first place - unless they were just biding their time until there were enough of them to demand change.

Gosh - And I am happy to continue to say it until it sinks in:

Quran doesn't tell women to cover their faces - this is Fact.

Mohammad is also on record saying a woman should cover everything except hands and face (Abu Dawud 32:4092 - as told by Aisha). This is also Fact.

So, please enlighten us. Are you arguing with the Quran or the Hadith, because they are both saying that the face need not be covered.

Adventureted - I hear heaps re veil wearers not coming here unless they want to dress like europeans.

Thing is that UK immigration has been for generations. Muslims are born in the uK and have full UK rights (aka they are BRITISH). Muslims and Hindus and Jewish are british.

Quite rightly so.

There are plenty of muslim countries where face coverings just are weird.

You'd have the same comments/stares/cat calls if you wore one there as you'd get here. And please, let's not pretend that a woman not covering her hair in a country where it is the norm (not the law) wouldn't get comments/abuse/things thrown at her. All societies have intollerance and arseholes.

Now, I'm not sure if the women who wear them here tend to be from/background is from a country where women do have to cover their faces but I find it odd that a womam who/whose family is from a country where the face veil is not the 'norm' would decided to copy another countries tradition.

It's like me deciding that I fancy being a budhist and want to wear a kimono, because that's traditional Japanese dress.

Cote - Islamic scholarship uses the Quran and Hadith as a basis. You know about the 5 schools of fiqh (there were more previously) and how and why they may have different opinions on issues from wudu to salah and many other issues. Again, I think you have been told all of this previously.

There are hadith by the wives of the Prophet discussing how they covered their faces in particular situations, and certainly emulating the Mother of the Believers (as the Prophet Muhammed's wives are known in Islam) is reason some women give for wearing niqab. Others embrace it as a form of ascetic practice. In summary, they feel their reasons for wearing it are valid.

Nicename - Buddhism doesn't come from Japan.

I am dismayed (to put it mildly) that this discussion seems to be plummeting into "foreigners wearing foreign clothes, how dare they".

I think I have said all I need to say on this topic. For those who have made some interesting points, thank you.

shnickshack has put it very clearly I think: "wearing a Burka is an overt statement saying this is 'us' and you are 'them'. Burkas segregate."

I dont want to be segregated from anyone, I'd like to be able to make my own choice based on individuals. But if you are wearing a veil it seems like you've made the choice already without giving me a chance.

so tolerance/bridge building has to work both ways...

I didn't say it was from Japan - just that Japan is a (not completely, but for the purposes of example) Buddhist country and that copying a way of dressing that is culturally Japanese would be like me converting to Islam and wearing clothes that are culturally from Saudi.

So yes, maybe it is 'funny forrin clothes' but my relatives in Iran would say exactly the same ("why are you dressing like an Arab?").

Gosh- You are not answering my question.

Are you saying that Quran is wrong (because it talks about covering head & bosom but not the face) or that Aisha lied and Mohammad never said that women's face and hands should be visible?

Gosh - hindus and sikhs don't have representatives screaming to UK people that they are going to take over, and that they are going to implement their own laws in place of UK law.

My hindu friend fears it is all going to kick off here soon, and he has a house in India ready to bog off to with his family if and when it does.

I know a few serious Buddhists - who don't wear clothes from Japan.... they wear clothes from Tibet - you know, the maroon and gold kit like the Dalai Lama. And they shave their heads, which isn't a cultural norm for British women. Used to often see one in the village shop before it closed. (and some Zen Buddhists do wear a style of robe originating in Japan, come to think).

Don't think that example held up too well!

We should ask Jubel Miah from Burnley's wife whether women are free to choose whether to veil or not.

Ted ... its a shame that a small minority of a minority has such a disproportionate effect on peoples perceptions.

Errol - I don't know about that, but I know they like to be the tail wagging the dog when it suits them.

Blast this blackberry! It keeps crashing...

Bad example but you get the jist - I wouldn't copy clothes from X culture to display ny religious beliefs of Y. Covering face is particular to women from A, B and C, not all muslim countries. My family would have a stroke if I put on a veil (or have me committed). That's the muslim ones living in a muslim country btw (not the CoS in Aberdeen).

What we wear says something about us whether we like it or not. Over and above protecting our bodies from the elements, clothes signifie our social status and what we identify with.

Wearing a burka signifies 'I belong to my (Pakistani) community first and foremost and have no interest in having a relationship with people outside of my community.

As human beings we connect and interact with our environment through all our senses. Hiding away one's face behind a mask takes a little bit of humanity away, not only from the wearer but also from the those who are looking.

I have friends all over the world from a wide range of cultures and social classes. I would never be able to be friends with someone who doesn't show their face to me or my family (including husband). I wouldn't be able to trust them.

How would you feel about a mum on the school run dressed in nothing else but underwear and sunglasses (opposite extreme of wearing a burka)? Would you say 'oh it's her choice, never mind how others feel' or would you feel uncomfortable about it?

Burkas alienate in my (not so modest) opinion.

No, I don't get your jist - you might not change your clothes to show your beliefs but other people apart from Muslims do.

Errol - what is religious about traditional pakistani menswear (apart from the hat)?