The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

I struggle to understand why some groups in our society believe that they are above the law of the land. If the law states that a persons face must be seen in court/at passport control/in a hospital then that is the law that everyone should respect. Unfortunately some religious groups seem to believe they are above the law and I am not sure why this is being tolerated (because it is) by the authorities. This isn't about offending anyone it's about stating that religious beliefs are completely separate and should not influence the law.

How have things changed over the last twenty or thirty years, that wearing he veil or not is now an issue? Are there more veil-wearers around?
The same number, but now they are standing their ground and saying they won't unveil?
Few societies manage change well if it is in a short space of time, so why is this an issue now when it hasn't been before?

Thank goodness for Muslims like Abdul Haji, who risked his life to save Christians from the murderers at the Westgate Shopping Centre.

If the law states that a persons face must be seen in court/at passport control/in a hospital then that is the law that everyone should respect

Absolutely. The woman who wanted to stay veiled in court wasn't allowed to. Are passport control officers actually letting in anyone without a proper check? - if they are then they bloody well shouldn't.

Silver - what has changed - the most obvious thing is (a) Afghanistan/Iraq and (b) 9/11 and 7/1. A genuine fear of terrorism leads to a fear of veiled Muslim women. (Plus, as discussed before, hard times leading to scapegoat-hunting)

But they are a soft target - banning veils won't solve the real issues, and will exacerbate the extremism.

They must be doing proper customs checks - I assume!

Anyone 'up to no good' would probably travel in discuise with a false passport anyway. How else could that [blankety blank fill in your own descriptor here] samantha laithwaite creature travel internationally?

I think there are more women wearing veils these days.

When I moved to London (over 20 years ago) I had never seen one in the flesh and the only ones I'd see were very old women, usually in wheelchairs from the ME with the scary gold bird masks.

You rarely saw a brit woman wearing a scarf or robes, and certainly not a caucasian woman.

The most often seen would be indian women in sarees and other asian women in the tunic/trouser outfit (coloured, patterned, not plain and black).

Not its fairly common to see young women in shops with jeans and fitted tops wearing head scarves (and tonnes of makeup) chatting in thick laaarndun-mate accents. You now see schoogirls wearing scarves, white women covered head to foot...

Funnily enough, the women I see here on their holidays from ME tend to wear the latest fashion (last year it was leggings, bright wellies and matching coloured barn jackets with headscarves - bit like the queen really!), this year turbans have been popular (my granny wore these when they were fashionable here in the 40s!), and/or the long black robes have diamante or lace detailing on the sleeves (often worn with killer heels).

I wonder where the women who cover here - to whatever extent - get their dress sense (not the right word - fashion, style...) from, as I don't see brit women following the ME fashions.

Adventure - he was a decent, brave human being with a heart and soul. The poor man will probably get death threats from idiots too.

The creatures who planned, funded, aided and carried out this, and other such attacks are not. They are not muslims. They are terrorists. You cannot even call them 'animals' as I can't think of any other creature on this planet who kills wholesale like this.

I don't think people are scared of women wearing a veil. I think they are sick and tired of hearing how our laws are being flouted. How a woman can stand in court and refuse to show her face, how a school can treat girls like second hand citizens, how a lot of food e.g. all airline food is halal without the majority not agreeing. I must be very stupid because I just don't see how this is difficult to understand - if you live in the UK you live under UK laws. If someone enters a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet they have to remove it - why is a woman wearing a veil different?

Because God says so. That is the most difficult argument to counter.

God hasn't said so, though. And neither has his prophet.

But that's the justification though. They won't say 'its because my dad/husband etc says so'. Most likely say 'it says in the koran...'.

Can't argue with the Big Man, can you?

It doesn't say in the Quran.

The passage when it talks about covering oneself is quite short. I recommend reading it and sharing the good news that the veil is not in the Quran.

I know - I have read it! It's what some say though, isn't it? A woman wouldn't say 'its cultural', she would say 'its my religion'. Isn't there also something about not dying your beard red?

A white muslim woman once gave me a lecture on why she had had her dogs put down when she converted to islam after marrying a man from north africa because they were dirty animals and 'against islam'. She was talking bollocks.

But niqab wearing women aren't flouting any laws!

They show their faces on request at airport and other secure venues.

The women in court in enquired about having to show her face and a decision was reached. I do believe it is still ok to ask questions in this country, regardless of your religion, yes?

The school is being dealt with, but this is not the first time there has been problems with free schools, only last time it involved evangelical Christians.

Companies "secretly" providing halal meat won't be doing so because of Muslims. If we don't know the meat is halal (because it is not openly marketed as such) we aren't going eat it, are we? Presumably the companies can get the halal meat cheaper - so the issue is economics, not Muslims demanding things.

ilove - but the woman wasn't allowed to keep her veil on in court (umpteenth time). The school is being investigated and I very much doubt it will be allowed to carry on this abuse and flouting of equality.

Is 'how a lot of food e.g. all airline food is halal without the majority not agreeing' actually true? All airline food? I thought EU regulations required halal and kosher meat to be labelled? - this is something that definitely should be done (and apply to prepared meals not just raw meat). I would have thought both Muslims and halal-avoiders (which includes me and my family) would be in favour of this, doesn't seem controversial.

Cote - you say this on every related thread ever and on every single thread, Muslim women have usually corrected you about what Islamic scholarship entails. However, you seem determined to treat us as stupid and claim you know our religion better then we do. It's boring.

So Gosh, what would you suggest to reduce the climate of suspicion and prejudice, and to try and turn the tide of people seeing what is happening in other countries with inter-ethnic conflicts and feeling that the way of avoiding it spreading here is to ban things, practices and customs that are seen as un-British?
Niqab-wearing women aren't flouting the law yet. Which is what this thread is about, isn't it? What if the law changes, driven by opinions that covering the face is wrong?

You asked Gosh not me, but my answer is the (probably hopelessly) idealistic one that people should start by changing themselves (from both 'sides') - to just treat people as people and quit the wretched 'us and them'.

The phrase 'un-British' puts me in mind of the Un-American activities committee. Well, I want to think that picking on the soft target of veiled women rather than rationally dealing with real problems is what is 'un-British'.

What Errol said.

A decent media which actually reported on things properly without descending into hysteria, sensationalism and appeals to the lowest common denominator would also help.

My dad and his family are from a Muslim background and by extension I was born a Muslim. I am certainly not religious in any way but was brought up to be tolerant of all religions. My dad and his extended family are open minded, well read and educated and, although they are all practicing Muslims, the women in my family would never consider covering their heads.

That's just a bit of background.

I have to say that seeing women wearing a Burka pushes all my buttons and makes me extremely intolerant. I think covering your face bar the eyes is completely antisocial and I feel threatened by it. I get pissed off when I see mums wearing a burka on the school run and would feel very uncomfortable about a teacher or doctor covering their face in this way. I would probably change school / GP if this happened.

I may be wrong (especially as I am not able to read the facial expressions of someone wearing a Burka) but displaying your interpretation of Islam in this way comes across as arrogant. This dress code prevents people from engaging with each other as equal humans and I hate that the husbands of these ladies walk around free from any such (fabricated) constraints.

I have no issue with women wearing a head scarf or hijab but I definitale am for a ban on Burkas.

Also this mentality of looking for a minority to blame for the country's ills, if it weren't Muslims, it would be someone else. It's a scapegoating mindset that needs to change.

Errol, wearing a Burka is an overt statement saying this is 'us' and you are 'them'. Burkas segregate.

I agree, but the majority are usually only motivated by what benefits them, and sadly the current government runs along similar lines.
As I said previously, policies that are anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim and anti Foreigners Who Make Us Uncomfortable is a vote-winner for a lot more people than it isn't. There is no downside to banning the veil for the majority of the population.

Long ago, I got into trouble on a different site. A friend was trying to gain support on an issue that related directly to an issue that affected the disabled community. She got few responses, because as I pointed out, most people are only interested in things that affect them directly.
So I said I'd get more posts if I asked 'How many varieties of jam have you got in your fridge?' as jam is often more interesting than disability to those that aren't living with it, and I started one.

After several hundred responses, one person realised that the two threads were linked, and there were numerous hurt feelings by people who felt they'd been played. But it didn't alter the fact that few were interested in a topic that didn't involve them personally in their RLs.
The current climate for many is moving towards a feeling that Muslims are scary and different and their lifestyles are hard to understand, they put faith above the laws of the land...true or not, prejudice makes for a challenging environment for people to live in, and their children.

'Also this mentality of looking for a minority to blame for the country's ills, if it weren't Muslims, it would be someone else.'

Yes, it always has been, for thousands of years. Scapegoating is endemic in most cultures. We've had massacres in this county based on that premise.

What would a general ban actually achieve other than sparing your feelings though? What's more arrogant - displaying this interpretation of Islam, or seeking to ban it?

(and are there any teachers in non-muslim schools or GPs who wear a veil while working? )