The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

[Wannabestepfordwife]

I don't think the courts take into account the emotional damaged caused by being attacked by someone who is supposed to love you and care for you. I don't think they are aware how it makes someone completely question themselves you know did I deserve it, what's wrong with me, how could I have trusted them

[nicename]

But he will find another victim. Pigs like this always do. "Oh, she was a lying cow. It was all made up and they believed her. She had a boyfriend who beat her up and she blamed me. I tried to protect her...". Shame he can't be restrained from going near any woman.

[78bunion]

"4:34..... If you fear high-handedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. "

[iloverainbows]

My understanding about the court case was that initially she refused to reveal her face but this problem was overcome by her being identified by a female officer in private. To me this is still unacceptable. She refused to reveal her face to a judge, her face cannot been seen whilst giving evidence/being charged etc. How many times do we see reported 'the defendant showed no remorse' - ie people could see their faces. As other posters have said this is simply saying my religion is above your law, I can do what I like and make you jump through hoops to accommodate me. I think there is a big difference between being tolerant of people practicing their religion and it encroaching on society.
It would be so much easier if the state were to become secular, it would make a lot of decisions very easy and everyone would know where the stand. No religious schools would be a great start as one example. By all means practise your religion but do use this to make our your rights are more important than everyone elses.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Your understanding is wrong - the judges ruling was that she had to unveil and be visible to the judge and jury while giving evidence.

I wish we had a secular state (ITA on schools), but part of secularism is that the state doesn't interfere in religion (unless its doing something generally illegal of course). Upthread, I quoted the president of the NSS - he doesn't think veils should be banned.

[iloverainbows]

Sorry Errol I got that wrong and am glad the judge has said this, I nope there isn't any back tracking when pressure is applied.

[ErrolTheDragon]

I don't see why there should be. Someone mentioned upthread that women have to unveil in a Saudi court.

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

What us the burka you've seen the afghan ones with a grill? Or black cape style?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

That doesn't sound like a free democratic society rainbow, do as we do or else. Sounds more authoritarian. But then again this idea of freedom and democracy I think it's baloney we are controlled in more ways than we are willing to admit.

[brettgirl2]

So the wives of the prophets covered their faces in certain situations...... Like on a rollercoaster for example? I went to a theme park recently and I've never in my life seen as many niqabs in one place. I can't believe that there aren't more people wearing them I had never, ever seen one before going to university. Christians also wear veils for certain occasions but no one has ever suggested this should be extended to Asda .

I really try to be tolerant of others but my understanding is that the qu'ran says that men and women should dress modestly. I just can't get my head round this equating to covering your face.

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

Brett they obviously arranged a day out hence there were lots of veiled girls in the theme park. Aren't they allowed there in a group. I wouldn't recommend veils on theme Park rides though safety issues. I personally wouldn't go, been there done that many years ago seems a bore to me now, if I did go I wouldn't wear a face veil on certain rides.p,,roller coaster .that one where you stand up and it comes straight down id want a pic at the top lol

I don't understand your point about asda what was it?

it's not just saying modesty it's about gods commands too, and there are evidences in Quran and Hadith hence you have a group that's wears it and a group that don't.

[nicename]

Wouldn't the veils flip up on a rollercoaster?

Christian women just wear veils at their weddings, not always, and not always over the face anyway. And definately not at Asda, unless they've started doing weddings. Even very devout nuns would never cover their faces.

[brettgirl2]

My point really is that wearing for certain occasions or to emulate someone is way off wearing them the whole time. Of course they are allowed out, its just odd in England, and it wasn't what I expected in a theme park.

I don't feel comfortable with banning anything that hurtsmo one else in a free democratic society but I have difficulty coming to terms with the niqab.

And seemingly they stayed put on rollercoasters so more practical than you might think .

[brettgirl2]

Isn't the viel used at confirmations/ communions? Or perhaps it just used to be....

[nicename]

Maybe them-thar catholics have them, although last first comm I went to all the girls were in pretty frocks with nothing on their heads. I suspect if you watched the gypsy wedding shows on tv it may be a little different.

Covering your face seems like hiding - either you are concealing your identity or trying to avoid people seeing you in case you offend.

The human body is, in the main, not offensive and the face/hair certainly isn't. Hands and feet, eyes, voice... oh come off it.

What is to stop a man looking at a shapeless black robe and imagining a busty beauty underneath, wearing tacky boudoir attire? I see plenty of ME robed women in Victoria Secrets buying armfuls of the skimpiest, fanciest undies - they won't be showing granny them - so men do see women wearing such things. So what's to stop them looking at another woman and imagining...

And perfume - I can tell the ME robed women because if the intense perfume coming from them (men too). Rich, strong, rich smells, sometimes lovely (sometimes gagging), which certainly catch your attention. Maybe they shouldn't wear that either. Isn't smell a sensual thing too? Maybe they should all just smell like carbolic soap (nothing sexy about that!).

It is all about sex then? Does modesty equate sex?

[brettgirl2]

It definitely used to be, but probably it has been sensibly done away with in recent years. I don't really know I'm basing this on old confirmation photos in the attic rather than big fat gypsy weddings.... Don't do church myself so have no recent experience.

[Wannabestepfordwife]

I don't recall wearing a veil for my first confirmation but that was 20 years ago

[nicename]

Maybe it depends where you are, and how frum your church is, and what your family believe... Oh, hang on...

Weird either way. When I was confirmed (cofe) it was the thing just to wear your school uniform!