The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

[edam]

YY I'm sure there are plenty of women who wear the veil as a choice, but wonder how many are not making an active choice. Like the woman who approached Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.

[ErrolTheDragon]

What makes you think that, Errol? When have I ever given the impression that I care a hoot about "sacred" books?

Never up till now! You seem to be saying its really important to understand that the wearing of the veil doesn't come from ancient scriptures... yes, I know that, but I really don't care a hoot whether it does or not.

[ErrolTheDragon]

YY I'm sure there are plenty of women who wear the veil as a choice, but wonder how many are not making an active choice. Like the woman who approached Yasmin Alibhai-Brown.

Yes, I wonder too - but I also wonder whether that woman would have been allowed out unaccompanied/at all if she'd not been veiled.

[boschy]

"really it isnt about not wanting to know other people, alot of the veiled women i know are extroverts not introverts, they love to talk and meet people and are happy when people overlook the niqab and talk to them directly. do you not see that it is an assumption on her clothing that she would be antisocial? just as some people might hold (or have held?) assumptions about people who dress very gothic, or very punk that they might be antisocial?"

crescent yes I do totally see that, of course I do. I'd love to find out more - but given that I live in the back end of beyond nowadays am unlikely to do so. I suppose that's partly why I've become fascinated by this debate.

[snowqu33n]

Where I live, it is perfectly normal for anyone who is at all sick to wear a surgical mask at all times in public, especially on public transport. At first I thought it was weird, and it reminded me of Michael Jackson, but I would do it myself now, if I had a cough or runny nose. This is because it is considered bad manners to blow your nose in public. People just sniff, or let their nose run inside the mask.
I teach teenagers, and some teenagers wear this kind of mask all the time, they like to hide behind it in the way some goth teenagers comb their hair over their face and hide behind that. I teach English, so I make them take it off for speaking tests or speeches because it muffles their pronunciation and impacts communication. Teachers who are sick remove the mask to teach their classes.
The wearing of a mask just isn't an issue otherwise, even though you can only see the eye area of the wearer's face. It is the norm.
The advantage is that infectious diseases don't spread as much. Touch wood, but I haven't had a cold for at least two years. In the UK, I had a cold at least once a year. It now irritates me if someone with a persistent cough doesn't wear a mask near me.
IMHO the burqa or veil debate really is about people fearing Islam. There is a perception that Moslems want to take over every country where they have a presence and impose Sharia. Most people don't want to give up their right to choose whether to follow religious rules or not. However, Moslems should also have the right to choose to follow religious rules if they wish, as long as they don't impose on the rights of others.

[1chocolatetart]

If it really was about fearing Islam, why are people, like me, saying that they have no issues with other religious attire such as head scarves?

[snowqu33n]

I think it is because burqa and veils that cover most of the face are associated with more extreme Moslems.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Snow - yes, I can't imagine anyone thinking eg this girl was unsociable or sinister.

IMHO the burqa or veil debate really is about people fearing Islam. There is a perception that Moslems want to take over every country where they have a presence and impose Sharia

Yes... seems to me that the majority of Muslims who've chosen to live in Britain do so because they want to live in British society with our laws! (Those I know do.) They don't make newspaper headlines though.

[AdventureTed]

Errol - the muslim man who fitted my mum's kitchen years ago told her that he and his fellow muslims were going to take over the country, and make non-muslims pay a special tax to them.

Her friend was stood at the bus stop in a queue. The bus arrived, but a muslim lady in a headscarf tried to jump the queue. When people objected, she just said "well in a few years muslims will be in charge". We ARE a tolerant country but some people take the piss.

[AdventureTed]

Also, another friend was upstairs on the bus while muslim young men were expressing their jubilation about 9/11.

[snowqu33n]

oh, and this is the kind of think I and my friends wear for snowboarding, with reflective goggles usually. Terrifying.

[ErrolTheDragon]

We ARE a tolerant country but some people take the piss
yes... but I think the likelihood of that happening is about the same as the BNP coming to power.

I can't think of any anecdotes about Muslims I've met. Its like headlines - its the extremists you remember, not the hundreds more who you barely notice because they're just getting on with life.

[snowqu33n]

thing, not think

[AdventureTed]

My son has also been told by muslim lads at school that he is going to hell if he doesn't convert to islam.

My friend's daughter has suffered sexual harassment from muslim boys because she is white and non-muslim, and the school has been trying to deal with it.

Please don't pretend that ordinary people are just islamophobic racists. This is just insulting and leads to resentment.

[CoteDAzur]

Errol - It is important to realise that the veil isn't part of Islam, if only to point out to people like Gosh who try to portray this as intolerance to a religious minority.

Also, when people understand covering the face is not part of Islam, it can be legislated against without fear for looking like you are targeting Muslims. Young girls can grow up with the knowledge that it is not part of Islam and can tell men who tell them otherwise to go take a hike.

[edam]

There was a moving story after 7/7 about a young Muslim man on the tube the next day. Other passengers were eyeing him with concern, because he had a rucksack. Eventually he got fed up with this and opened the rucksack, saying 'LOOK, it's my gym kit!' I haven't told it as well as the original report, but it really made me feel for him.

[AdventureTed]

Edam - if someone had sat next to him with a rucksack the day after 7/7, he'd have been wary too.

[CoteDAzur]

"I also wonder whether that woman would have been allowed out unaccompanied/at all if she'd not been veiled"

That would be a criminal matter that the justice system would go after.

Society shouldn't accept a tool of oppression because the alternative could be worse oppression. Society should legislate to fight oppression, whether it is forced veiling or home imprisonment.

[edam]

Oh yeah, quite Adventure. I'm not criticising the jumpy people at all - I'd have been jumpy too. It was moving in a 'this is what the feckers did to that lad as well, made everyone suspicious of a perfectly innocent lad'. (I had been working at BMA House the day before - the bus bomb blew up outside and loads of docs I knew rushed out to treat the injured. And it turned out the terrorists had travelled into London on dh's train... but loads of people have stories about close shaves.)

[ErrolTheDragon]

Errol - It is important to realise that the veil isn't part of Islam, if only to point out to people like Gosh who try to portray this as intolerance to a religious minority

its intolerance to a minority, whether its religious or cultural. Personally I don't think one is more important than the other. I wouldn't have thought you did either.

Yes, certainly it would be good for all Muslim girls to know what this practice is or isn't based on. You don't need to legislation to do that.

Please don't pretend that ordinary people are just islamophobic racists
I don't. Just need to be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush - which I'm sure you don't mean to do but certain newspapers and groups seem to do too often.

[AdventureTed]

Errol - some muslims are moving out of my area to get away from other more intolerant ones. Are they islamophobes too?

[ErrolTheDragon]

Society should legislate to fight oppression, whether it is forced veiling or home imprisonment.

totally agree. But it should do so without itself becoming oppressive to those who actually have made a choice.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Errol - some muslims are moving out of my area to get away from other more intolerant ones. Are they islamophobes too?

No, they are - like the most of us, me included - 'extremophobes'. Except that its not a phobia, its rational to be afraid of people who wish to do harm.

[AdventureTed]

I was walking home from school today and was aware of the lovely warmth of the sun on my face and the gentle breeze through my hair. It lifted my spirit and made me blessed by nature.

It's wrong to force little girls to wear something that deprives them of this feeling. Let them be kids and enjoy life.

[nicename]

I do wonder what those who insist on veils have to say about women lusting after men. Oughtn't men also cover up too? I assume they have the 'fingers in the ears lalalalalala' attitude to lesbianism.