The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

It's a crime to have Robert D J in a mask in iron man!

nicename... like Queen Victoria...dunno, but by and large women are less prone to the equivalent of thinking with their dicks.

Errol - the men I know are decent and honourable.

Nicename - stating that someone should be allowed to dress a certain way without being harassed is not the same as "insisting" on something.
However in the Qur'an, both men and women are instructed to "lower their gaze" and not look at people lustfully.

Gosh - why do so many muslim men practise polygamy?

Some people do insist on a woman wearing a veil. I don't suppose for one minute that every woman in the UK who does so, and some do choose, has a free choice in the matter. Saudi/Afg etc are different matters entirely.

Lowering the gaze for both sexes is one thing, sauce for the goose and all that, but veiling one gender is different. It's an imbalance that isn't supposed to be in a womans favour. I somehow think that if women had traditionally held the political, financial and religious power, there would be no mention of covering up.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=djhCTisKWKM&desktop_uri=/watch?v=djhCTisKWKM

I was given this link on Facebook today. I am genuinely shocked at the number of 'likes' it has received. There doesn't seem to be a balanced view point coming from either side.

debate

Well, I feel lucky that Inhave grown up in thecWest. I feel lucky that I live here and not in a Muslim country. I feel lucky that I received good education, found a nice job, could choose who to marry etc etc etc. The same for my dd.

I think that there are huge injustices towards women in the Muslim world. I think that they are irrational, dangerous and often immoral.

I think that Britain can learn a thing or two from France in these matters. Being too tolerant may come at too high a price.

You do realise that the third most popular political party in France is the far-right national National Front. Does that sound like a nation we should emulate? Would you like the BNP to be the third most popular party in the UK?

Also what exactly do you mean by a "Muslim country"? There are 1 billion Muslims worldwide and countries with a Muslim majority population vary hugely, due to historical, societal and economic reasons.

Finally, most Muslims in this country were also born and raised here. It's pointless to talk about Muslims in the UK as if we all came off the boat yesterday. We are British and this is our country too.

Gosh - Front National has 2 seats out of 577 seats in the National Assembly and 0 out of 348 seats in the Senate.

Your attempts at portraying France as Hitler Germany are sadly mistaken.

I'm sure you meant fortunately mistaken!! But...

I would guess Gosh's claim arises from such as 'For the 2012 presidential election, opinion polls showed Marine Le Pen as a serious challenger, with a few polls even suggesting that she could win the first round of the election.[118][119] In the event, Le Pen came third in the first round, scoring 17.9% – the best showing ever for the FN.' or this. Or this : 'The survey revealed that the far-right National Front, the governing Socialist party, and the main centre-right opposition UMP were neck-and-neck on exactly 21 percent each of public support.' (June 2013)

I'm sure you have more local information - non-francophones have to take what the internet dishes up - but it doesn't look like something to be complacent about.

The BNP is already very popular in certain areas of England, and although their membership has dropped, it is in part because many members went off to create far-right splinter groups. Not because the population became more liberal towards ethnic minorities.
The political and social climate seems to be growing increasingly intolerant, and I can see the situation deteriorating further.
So what can be done to change that downward spiral into mistrust, exclusion and rejection? Which may them end up with more draconic legislation?

SilverApples - how about muslims in the UK marching en masse in protest at the worldwide torture and slaughter of non-muslims by muslims.

I'm more bothered by our society becoming more inward-looking and becoming indifferent to issues that don't directly affect them. Compassion and empathy fatigue.
Tolerance and acceptance are always thinner when the economic situation is weak, or if people feel under personal attack. Small things become huge issues, difference gets targeted negatively.
That changes when jobs are plentiful, there are no direct threats on the horizon and people can afford to live beyond the basics of food and fuel and housing.

Silver - yes - I was about to say 'improve the economy'.

There's a distressing tendency for people to look for someone else to blame and bully in bad times.

Ted...in the light of Iraq, Guantanamo and 'extraordinary rendition' would that really be where you'd start?

If you look at what's actually happening on a global scale Ted, there are far more Muslims killing Muslim situations.
Syria, Iraq, Pakistan are the lead three at the moment, but that may change.

Back to the veil debate.
Strife and war and dead civilians and fanaticism and jihad on the news and in the papers, and it's all happening elsewhere.
So the passenger on the Clapham omnibus thinks 'Thank God that it's not happening here, that it's not me and mine'
Then they see or hear something that makes them feel that perhaps they are not as safe as they'd assumed. Like a woman in a niqab. However erroneous. So that uncomfortable feeling and that fear drives the social climate, the voting and the NIMBY worries.

Yes... and that also leads to the point that 'Muslims' are not a homogenous group. Non-muslims have a simplistic tendency to complain that moderate muslims aren't speaking up enough or doing enough against extreme Islam... but we don't really expect the CofE to weigh in against various issues in the Catholic church and solve their problems.

Exactly, but that view of Muslims as a homogenous group is widespread, and the people who are most affected in a negative fashion are Muslims.

Taking another group out, we passed a clump of lads who yelled 'Pakis, fucking pakies, get back to (The asian section of the town)
One of my girls tossed her head and said 'Miss, they are so stupid. Can they not see I am Bengali?'
No, they couldn't. All they saw was salwaar kameez and dupattas and asian features. No difference, just 'other'

SilverApples - it IS happening here. 7/7, Lee Rigby, Kris Donald, muslim grooming gangs, no go areas for non-muslims, halal only school and hospital meals, muslim women being allowed to spread superbugs in hospitals by wearing sleeves, sect of muslims fighting each other on our streets, fgm, forced marriage, honour killings, death threats to Salman Rushdie et al, marches for sharia...

That is the perception of many people in this country, which is why I can see a veil ban becoming law. Along with numerous other legal changes that will impact on some ethnic minorities much harder that other UK citizens.
Fear restricts freedoms. A veil ban would be an easy vote-winner.

It's no so 'simplistic' when the loudest voices we hear are the 'our mooslim brothers are beinmg slaughtered by the non-muslims... Yada yada'. Sounds like all one big happy family, yes?

My muslim DH snorts 'that lot would see every one of us and our family slaughtered if they had their way...'. When I ask why the muslim countries don't sort out wars/slaughter/opression in their 'brothers and sisters' countries he just says thjat they all mistrust/hate each other and would only get involved through fear or greed.