The Veil Debate

[boschy]

Forgive me if this has been done elsewhere, but I havent seen it.

So, there is this big debate at the moment about where/when/if women should wear the veil. Leaving aside the relious obligation, which doesn't seem entirely clear to me, I think there are other criteria involved.

For me, it seems that if wearing a full or partial veil obscures the wearer's face, there are certain situtations where it should not be allowed - for example, if you are in court on trial or as a witness; or as a teacher; or giving care (nursing/care homes etc) where those receiving the care would expect full face contact in order to fully understand facial expression, lip movement etc.

If, as an adult woman, you choose to wear the veil for most of your normal day to day interactions - then that's your choice. But in the situations I outline above, I don't think it's appropriate. Am I wrong?

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Cogito - Justanother is here discussing this with you. "Nothing about us without us" is rightly seen as a key part of social policy. There are plenty of ways of seeking the opinions of niqab wearing women. There are plenty who are happy to talk to the media when consulted.

That MCB "quote" sounds like it was taken out of context, I would need to see the original.

You still haven't justified why there needs to be a national debate, all this debate does is make Muslim women's bodies public property.

Adventure - why does the supermarket need to see people's faces? They can still follow people around the shop on CCTV and detain them if necessary.

In the case of secure transactions at banks and the like, niqab wearing women are happy to confirm their identity by showing their faces on request.

[AdventureTed]

Gosh - security guards get to know the local shoplifters, and they are given photos of people with ASBO's so they can look out for them.

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

I think tescos needs to discuss this eith major supermarkets in Saudi Arabia see how they deal with veiled women shoplifting.

If veiled women shoplifting becomes an issue I'm sure all retail outlets will enforce a rule of no facial coverings. Since that isn't the case this is a non issue . Sorry but I think it's a mountain out of a mole hill.

[boschy]

The thing is though, that if I, as a white, atheist woman, visited a mosque anywhere in the world, I would be expected to cover my head, be clothed to cover my arms and legs, remove my shoes etc.

The same might apply if I was visiting the bazaar, or any other public place in eg Saudi Arabia. If I was invited to an audience with the Pople at the Vatican, I would be expected to wear a mantilla.

And of course I would do any of those things without a second's thought, because that is the NORM in those situations.

In the UK, it is not the norm for people to cover their faces in public; hence the requirement to remove your motorbike helmet in the bank/not wear a hoodie at school/whatever other trivia you can think of.

So someone covering their face is automatically distancing themselves from the norm, and to me this is a real barrier to communication. And without communication how can there be understanding or even acceptance?

[justanuthermanicmumsday]

So take a photo of those women without the veil and do a match up not hard work. Veiled women can remove their veils for police, courts and security reasons.

But i do find this hilarious this sense of fear of veiled women in the supermarket shoplifting. I'm sure facts are, very few veiled women if any regularly shoplift. Paranoia springs to mind.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"You still haven't justified why there needs to be a national debate"

Justify? I'm old enough to remember when crash-helmets became compulsory. There was a national debate about whether Sikh men should be exempted to accommodate their turbans and that's how it ended up. Sikh or turban-wearing men are not in the majority. I don't think the discussion 'made their bodies public property'. It was a practical problem thrown up by a legal requirement and that's exactly what's going on here.

[BarbarianMum]

[AdventureTed]

Just - Are people wearing veils any less likely to be shoplifters than the rest of the population?

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"Justanother is here discussing this with you"

Which is marvellous. But surely they and you can appreciate the irony of someone who hides themselves away complaining that they are being ignored? Step out of the self-imposed shadow and be heard...

[boschy]

just you are trivialising things I think. can you explain why we shouldnt discuss this, and what approach you would like to see non-muslim non-veil wearers take?

[AdventureTed]

Just - What about ATAA Jewellers in Glasgow. They are muslims and they have banned veils from their shop because someone wore one to try to raid their shop.

[AdventureTed]

In western popular culture, long black garments and concealed faces are used to represent supernatural baddies in films and books eg ringwraiths in LOTR, dementors in Harry Potter, the ghost of Christmas Future in A Christmas Carol, The Grim Reaper etc.

I don't intend to offend anyone - it's just we have been brought up to be wary of people dressed like this.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

O.P there is a different between suitable dress codes in particular buildings - you can't wear a swimsuit to an office either, and wishing to ban something in society full stop.

Particularly when the reason for that ban seems to be founded on little more then "I don't like it"

There are many things I don't like about the way people dress or adorn themselves, I don't feel entitled to ban it.

Cogito - but veil wearers aren't being ignored are they? So if you want to talk about a societal group, which you seem very keen to do, you should be willing to talk to them.

Or are you seriously stating that it would be absolutely fine for the state and media to discuss Muslim women as if we are not human and have no voices?

Adventure Ted - individual buildings are entitled to set such policies, just like certain shops ban unaccompanied school children.

However, like Just said, there's hardly a niqab wearers crime wave.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Adventure - didn't you get brought up to distinguish between real life and fantasy too?

[CokeFan]

I think it makes conversation more difficult because it's unequal. It's a bit like having a Skype conversation where only one side has a camera. They can see you, but you can't see them.

[WidowWadman]

cokefan - wouldn't that be just like a phone call? I.e. not particularly difficult at all?

[CokeFan]

A phone call is equal though, neither party can see the other.

[WidowWadman]

I've been on skype calls before where my mum's camera was borked, and it really didn't feel any different to a phone call, nor did I feel the need to turn my camera off.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"Or are you seriously stating that it would be absolutely fine for the state and media to discuss Muslim women as if we are not human and have no voices?"

I'm saying nothing of the kind, of course. Simply pointing out that it's ironic when people who choose to walk around in an outfit specifically designed to make them anonymous and invisible to society complain that they are being ignored by that society. As for treating Muslim women as inhuman and having no voice, I think sadly that that attitude is far more prevalent in communities and countries where the veil is mandatory.

[claig]

It's nothing to do with the colour, it's to do with culture.
Many people fear that the culture is changing and don't know where it will lead.

[AdventureTed]

What's skin colour got to do with anything? Zombies and vampires are often portrayed as being deathly white.

To be honest, I don't care what you choose to wear. I've thought about it, and decided it's your choice to wear what you want within the law.