Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

[endthiscowardice]

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

charles

I am attacking the much more entrenched status quo that in the UK male sexual violence goes generally unreported and when it is reported (especially by vulnerable people) it is dismissed.

So get off your high horse.

WTF??? Tabard Why have you put MY name at the beginning of that post?

What are you talking about?

The situation is quite reversed with white middle aged men going to certain parts of the world in order to abuse non white children.

That's true of all men with economic access to said countries. Most child porn in Japan comes from SEA. Most of the major markets for SEA mail order brides are other East Asian nations, mostly Taiwan and SK, particularly as far as Vietnam goes.

I am attacking the much more entrenched status quo that in the UK male sexual violence goes generally unreported and when it is reported (especially by vulnerable people) it is dismissed.

You're a left-liberal, so you're basically employing the concept of intersectionality. In a case like this, you get confused, because although you're probably ostensibly a "feminist", the people abusing these children were Muslim, Pakistani men with a clear racial motivation behind the abuse. So your brain sort of... short circuits almost, you can't really condemn the systematic rape and abuse of underage white girls by Muslim men, since Muslims are, as you have been told, a victim group and you have to tread carefully around anything that may implicate The Religion of Peace and that most advanced area of the Indian Subcontinent (Pakistan) in such behavior.

So instead, you just reel off a list of tired old tu quoques and false equivalencies.

I'm sure those girls are glad they have "feminists" like you fighting for the rights of the Muslim men involved not to be offended. Perhaps you could ask Trevor Phillips for a comfy sinecure somewhere.

Charles, you admit that it is the norm for lads to call women sluts for a joke over a few beers. You seem to think this is quite funny and trivial and acceptable view yourself. You dont seem to have much respect for women yourself.

But it is quran's views, you say, on non-muslim women that we must watch out for. This is interesting - what does the quran say about the treatment of non-muslim women? have you ever actually read the quran - or just daily mail and dubious sources to gain your pearls of wisdom.

Erm

You know nothing about me

And your attitudes towards women were revealed way upthread in your initial post.

Really am disengaging now. You carry on your fight to protect white people from discrimination. I will carry on concentrating on the victims of sexual crimes, irrespective of the profile of the offender. Do you froth in the same way when you read about what our 70s light entertainers did, or when you read about the abuse perpetrated by christian establishments, or when you read about the situation in children's homes in teh recent past, or about girls being abused by groups of men known to their family? I hope so, I really do. That would be great. Your posts seem to indicate your focus is elsewhere, however.

to say that it is the cause of the crime and THE factor that trumps above all others

Never, never, never have I said this. I did say that I think these crimes are racially aggravated but not that it is the most important factor.

How holier than thou to say you would 'focus on them being abhorrent' as if anyone who thinks that race is a factor doesn't think they are abhorrent.

I haven't anywhere compared Pakistani and Indian men

Have you read the thread defuse?

So many people on here implying that posters who think there was a racial/cultural element to these crimes think that that is more important than the crimes themselves. How does anyone extrapolate that?

defuse

same attitude
hidden in plain view. so much so that he can't even see it!!!

You dont seem to have much respect for women yourself.

No, you just made this up. I used it as a point of comparison for what constitutes a lack of respect on both sides and used it to illustrate that there's a clear difference in kind there.

Face it, your entire ideology is about demonizing WHITE men, we've all read the likes of feministing and jezebel and seen it ourselves.

have you ever actually read the quran

From the Quran:

Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement (has been determined), there is no sin on you. Surely, Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Qur'an 4:24

From the Hadiths:

Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period." [The Quran verse is 4:24]

Abu Dawud 2:2150

Want me to go on?

Nicetabard,

After reading through all his posts, i think i shall also disengage.

I think that is the right decision, defuse

Do you froth in the same way when you read about what our 70s light entertainers did, or when you read about the abuse perpetrated by christian establishments, or when you read about the situation in children's homes in teh recent past, or about girls being abused by groups of men known to their family? I hope so, I really do.

As has already been discussed, those 70s entertainers have received plenty of attention from the press, moreover, there wasn't a racial motivation behind the rapes and abuse, it was abuse, sure, but Savile & Co. weren't targetting young vulnerable Asian girls as a result of racial hatred of South Asians, purposefully injecting them with drugs, feeding them into meat grinders when they were done with them etc. If you can't see the difference here, then I really don't know what to say to you. You essentially completely deny any racial component to these cases, or pretend it isn't important, when it clearly was very important to both offender and victim.

Regarding the wider issue of abuse: Aggravated rape should often result in the death penalty. Cases of rape/murder should result in public execution. Severe child-abuse likewise. I'm 100% for liberal use of the death penalty, capital punishment and worse, regardless of background.

You can keep sticking them in prison for a few year, releasing them, letting them offend again, sticking them in prison for a few years more, rinse, repeat.... That tactic has worked so damn well, almost as well as British immigration policy post-1950s.

Tabard I'm still not really understanding why you attacked me like that.

But I think maybe it's based on your failure to know that what I wrote was a quotation from George Orwell, and what it actually means. It's not a view of mine to be taken literally.

Charles's views I find extreme and I cannot agree with them. But I do think he makes some interesting points. Why is it that there is such reluctance to accept that whites can be victims of racism as much as any other group in society? Why is it OK to pillory Christianity but not to criticise Islam?

There is a view that white = racist oppressors and non-white = oppressed victims.

Tabard I am sure that you would not argue that race is irrelevant if there were white paedophile gangs targeting non-white victims and committing offences against them only. It would be an outrage.

But because it is the opposite way round, any racial aspect is denied.

Why is this?

This is why I quote Orwell, that genius.

You said

"Careful Charles... you aren't allowed to say those things. If you stick your head above the parapet you'll get shot.

We are all equal but some of us are more equal than others."

You were expressing sympathy and solidarity with him and his views.

Shame he's turned out to be a total loon, isn't it

Ok, I've just read Charles's post where he talks about whores and sluts. I didn't see that one before. This is what happens when a thread gets added to so quickly.

I couldn't understand why you started talking about 'whores' and 'sluts' Tabard because I hadn't seen that post, only the later one.

Oh sorry

I didn't realise that this thread was about how white people are having such a difficult time in our society

I thought it was about child sexual abuse.

That seems to be a secondary concern to some on this thread though.

incidentally, gangs of white british men do abuse children who are not white. They go abroad to do so. This is quite well known. Will you be starting a thread about that?

Shame he's turned out to be a total loon, isn't it

Yes, everyone prior to the 1960s was a "total loon".

It's not about white people having problems in society Tabard. You have spent a long time on here trying to derail this thread by simply saying over and over that whites are child abusers too. No one denies this, no one.

This thread is about child abuse, not oppression of whites. Your views are twisted. There is a reluctance to engage with the concept of racist crime against whites, that is the point. You are a shining example of that attitude.

No I'm not starting a thread about white british men going abroad to abuse women there. I started the thread about a topic 'in the news'.

You have derailed and derailed and derailed by trying to talk only about other categories and instances of child abuse, but you won't engage with these particular, topical ones.

Your argument is basically this:

Because white men also abuse non-white women, crimes by non-white men against white children cannot be racist.

It's not even an argument.

I didn't realise that this thread was about how white people are having such a difficult time in our society

See, this is your only response. You laugh at the very idea a white person could be the victim of systematic, racially motivated abuse. I'm sure the Whites of Rhodesia would have been glad to have known that.

"No I'm not starting a thread about white british men going abroad to abuse women there."

Children. Was what I said. Odd thing to misquote.

So. You look at this stuff and what do you want to be done?

I see this and other cases in the news and I want

• People who report crimes of a sexual nature in the UK to be listened to, irrespective of their background, age etc and authorities to properly pursue cases

• Authorities to link accusations of sex crimes - many of these men are serial offenders - and will have had many acusations but no changes. There should be a way of linking them up so that if a person has had multiple accusations from different people especially over a number of years that should trigger some kind of keeping an eye on them / putting together all accusations which may not be enough individually but all together enable a prosecution

• Violent offenders esp. sex offenders should not be given a fixed tariff but should be kept away from the public whether in prison or hosp or other institution until a good stack of people are convinced that there is no risk of re-offending

There is lots more but that would be a good start.
An "amnesty" on people being able to report sex offences might be a good thing to identify lots of offenders - the whole jimmy saville thing has worked that way for some past abuse by high profile people and probably others which is good

And the a whole bunch of other stuff around attitudes and talking to children in schools and stuff.

Tabard your points here about child abuse and how to tackle it are all completely valid and no one would disagree with them.

But again you talk as of you have a monopoly on caring about child abuse.

You don't like this thread and you think you have a right to dictate what people can discuss. Who do you think you are?

Suggesting other threads is effectively telling others what YOU think they should discuss. Why would you 'wait with bated breath' for me to start start a thread with a title of your choosing?

No one on here thinks child abuse is secondary to other issues which may form an aspect of these recent cases as you persistently suggest.

It's not your place to try to derail discussions or tell people what they are allowed to discuss.

The topic of this thread -which is whether or not cultural/racial aspects are part if these particular news stories is an interesting one because views differ and are strongly held.

It's not your place to say it should have a different title.

So please stop hammering the same points in this obtuse and aggressive way -,and maybe start you own thread about a topic of YOUR choosing.

OP, this is an open forum and threads like this are bound to venture off track and attract animated opinion. 'Tis part of the endless joy that is MN.

I think the issue is that you seem to be hell bent on proclaiming these crimes to be racial ones. For others, they are about the abuse of vulnerable girls.

We don't know what was on their heads - (thank goodness). We don't know if they abused children in their own communities - maybe other things will start emerging as the cases unravel.

But all the Asian/Muslim bashing on this thread is unhelpful because it implies that these crimes were committed because these men came from those communities, but every community has its share of suck fucks.

Obviously, I mean sick fucks.

charles

Are we in dar al harb? most people would dis agree with you.

also in the verses you quoted were the prisoners of war white women? I wasn't aware that there were large amounts of white women in Arabia at that time, i assumed they were mainly semetic, north african etc, how did you come to the conclusion these verses are about white women?

pigsmummy I keep on saying that isn't the case Asians aren't targeted by these gangs. unfortunately in London I know Asian and black girls are. Maybe they are even less likely to go to police.

Lots of interesting comments. Can I add two paragraphs from a much longer article by Allison Pearson in yesterday's Telegraph. I am not doing a link as it will be behind the firewall for many:

Back in January, there was a profoundly disturbing case at Nottingham Crown Court. Adil Rashid, who had ?raped? an underage girl, was spared a prison term after the judge heard that the naïve 18-year-old attended an Islamic faith school where he was taught that women are worthless. Rashid told psychologists he had no idea that having sex with a willing 13-year-old was against the law; besides, his education had taught him to believe that ?women are no more worthy than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground?.

If you teach boys that a female is no better than a lollipop that has been dropped on the ground, eventually you produce a pimp who thinks that you break a girl?s spirit as though she were a horse, before branding her with your initial. That man and those attitudes have no place, no place at all, in Britain now.

I wonder what on earth Ofsted make of this school. I would like to see any reports they have written on it- but unfortunately the name of the school is secret.

The news coming out of the UK about old entertainers who raped and molested girls, muslim gang rapists and paedophile priests has been extremely depressing. There never seems to be an end to it.

For me, the bottom line is this.

If there are pockets of asian/pakistani/muslim men with the attitude that all white girls are easy, trash and therefore it is OK to abuse them (whether verbally or physically), then surely this is a problem that needs to be dealt with.

The existence of other, equally nasty attitudes, actions and abuse in other communities or individuals does not negate the need to deal with this particular abhorrent attitude.