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Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

319 replies

endthiscowardice · 14/05/2013 23:14

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

OP posts:
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alemci · 17/05/2013 18:50

well said handcream.

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handcream · 17/05/2013 18:55

Problem is Alemci is that some children will be removed by mistake. At present I feel (and I have no insight into SS) they want to be 100% sure.

If the family are from a different culture they get even more nervous.

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PenelopePortrait · 17/05/2013 21:00

These young girls are already damaged beyond belief by poor and inconsistent parenting. The damage is done long before the perverts move in. They are exactly what the perpetrators are looking for. They lure them in by being their friend, small acts of kindness are enough for these girls to begin to believe that these men care about them.

In deprived and disadvantaged areas there are any number of vulnerable and damaged young girls and those with the motivation to commit sex crimes know where to go and who to target. They don't chose confident, self assured girls - they pick the broken ones.

It could be anywhere, it couldn't be anyone.

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bumpertobumper · 17/05/2013 21:17

this is an interesting and informative article on the subject, well worth reading:
www.paulvallely.com/?p=7772

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NiceTabard · 17/05/2013 21:18

Well not always

Vulnerability is not always someone's "fault".
Not everyone can be made " confident and self assured" by dint of some kind of magical parenting.
Not everyone who is "confident and self assured" avoids being raped or having other bad things happen to them.

I'm quite happy to blame the rapists for these girls being raped. That seems like the right place to put the blame.
I think the authorities (all of them) need to get their act together, and now.

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KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 17/05/2013 22:12

"Why are no rich people funding pressure groups to get to the bottom of these issues in order to prevent them happening again?"
That is an excellent question. I don't give a shit if the gutter press are going through hugh grant's bin, and no amount of posutirng by the silly twat will convince me it matters. This issue, however, clearly does.

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SheTiger · 19/05/2013 10:16

I've read the responses here with interest, and I believe we still have a long way to go to raise the necessary awareness of what is happening to our society. I believe it is foolish, for example to say that there is no racist/religious element to Pakistani Muslims raping underage white girls. The authorities themselves have admitted that what is happening is the tip of the iceberg, and it is clear that the Muslim authorities choose to be powerless in stopping it - haven't you noticed that the first thing their leaders do is deflect the seriousness, and blame society as a whole for it?

In all countries there is poor parenting, and the social services are there to help. It is both unfair and totally wrong to blame what happened to these poor girls on poor parenting alone, nor the disinterest and betrayal of these girls by the authorities - we need to wake up and realise that in Islam, non-Muslim women are seen as easy pickings. This type of heinous crime is planned meticulously and psychopathically, because these Muslim Pakistanis know that in Islam, their prophet did the same, and they must copy him - to Muslims their prophet was the perfect man.

No amount of interacting and reaching out to Islam will work - they see it as weakness, and their first duty must be to their own kind. For too long we have been encouraged to sleepwalk down a cul de sac. For the sake of our children and grandchildren we must stop this, and assert our authority in our own country. These monsters (and there will be more of them) have to get the message once and for all - they must be punished severely until they stop.

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SheTiger · 19/05/2013 10:21

Several posters seem reluctant to accept the enormity and danger of these Muslim crimes - why? The proof is there for us all to see - these are Muslim men, consistently grooming, pimping and raping non-Muslim underage girls? It is a hate crime, and a race crime - end of. These girls have been betrayed twice - once by society as a whole, and again by the police. They are betrayed again by every single British person who tries to rationalise what these monsters have done by saying "it happens across society". It doesn't. If white non-Muslim men did the same to Muslim girls on such a widespread industry-like scale - there would be riots and violence from the Muslim community, with our police as usual, running scared of Muslims. Wake up.

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alemci · 19/05/2013 11:12

My mum and stepdad have a Moslem friend. His son was due to get married to a girl in an arranged marriage. It didn't work out and they didn't get married. His dad's attitude was 'Oh well, we'll get him another one' like the women is a commodity.

Mum was not impressed and this guy is quite Westernised.

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alemci · 19/05/2013 11:16

You make some good points She Tiger.

Also did their Prophet behave in this way. Interested about this as I hadn't heard this said ever.

I come from a christian background with the idea of treat others how you would like to be treated which I think is very much ingrained in the British culture and I feel that many Moslems do share those values. This is such a shame.

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nailak · 19/05/2013 15:00

did Our prophet ever sleep with a girl he wasnt married to or share one of his wives/partners with his friends? Is that what you are saying? If not exactly what is the evidence you are using to say Prophet Muhammad acted in a similar way to these men? Yes he married a young girl. This was common accross all societies at this time, at the same time in Europe what was the average age of marriage? He MARRIED a young girl, not shared her amongst his friends. Her opinions on this marriage are widely documented.

In Islam our neighbours have rights over us, Muslim or non Muslim, our community has rights over us.

And be good to the neighbour who is your relative and to the neighbour who is not a relative . . . (Qur'an, 4:36)

Islam has great respect for the mutual rights and duties of neighbours. The Holy Prophet said:

Jibra'1 always used to advise me to be generous with neighbours, till I thought that Allah was going to include the neighbours among the heirs of a Muslim.

The rights of neighbourhood are not meant for Muslim neighbours only. of course, a Muslim neighbour has one more claim upon us - that of Islamic brotherhood; but so far as the rights of neighbourship are concerned, all are equal.

The Holy Prophet said:
That man is not from me who sleeps contentedly while his neighbour sleeps hungry.

Al-Imam `Ali ibn al-Husayn (a. s.) in his Risalat al-Huquq, said:
These are your duties towards your neighbour: Protect his interests when he is absent; show him respect when he is present; help him when he is inflicted with any injustice. Do not remain on the look-out to detect his faults; and if, by any chance, you happen to know any undesirable thing about him, hide it from others; and, at the same time, try to desist him from improper habits, if there is any chance that he will listen to you. Never leave him alone at any calamity. Forgive him, if he has done any wrong. In short, live with him a noble life, based on the highest Islamic ethical code.

eighbour?s rights

Islam pays attention to the issue of neighbours, whether they are Muslim or not, because of the interests served by that in making the nation like one body. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ?Jibreel kept on enjoining the good treatment of neighbours to the extent that I thought that he would include neighbours as heirs.? (Agreed upon. Narrated by Muslim, 2625)

Among the rights of one neighbour over another as affirmed by Islam are the initiation of greetings, visiting him if he is sick, offering condolences if calamity befalls him, congratulating him at times of joy, overlooking his mistakes, concealing his faults, bearing his annoyance with patience, giving him gifts, lending him money if he needs it, lowering one?s gaze from looking at his womenfolk, and guiding him to that which will benefit him in his religious and worldly affairs. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

?The best of companions with Allaah is the one who is best to his companion, and the best of neighbours with Him is the one who is best to his neighbour.?(Narrated by al-Bukhaari in al-Adab al-Mufrad, 115)

Concerning neighbours? rights, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

?Worship Allaah and join none with Him (in worship); and do good to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, Al-Masaakeen (the poor), the neighbour who is near of kin, the neighbour who is a stranger, the companion by your side??[al-Nisaa? 4:36]

Islam warns against annoying one?s neighbours or treating them badly. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained that this would lead to being deprived of Paradise: ?He will not enter Paradise from whose harm his neighbour is not safe.? (Agreed upon. Narrated by Muslim, 64).

islamqa.info/en/ref/11413

As you can see here, the idea that we have no responsibility to non Muslims is not from Islam. We live together in one community and we should all be working for the benefit of the community that we live in.

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alemci · 19/05/2013 16:17

Thanks Nailak.

What is your take on why the men behaved in this way?

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ReallyTired · 19/05/2013 18:00

Nailak

I don't think Islam itself is to blame for these terrible crimes. There is a difference between the culture of these communities and how their religion tells them to behave.

There is a world of difference between taliban culture and the teachings of the Quran. I don't think there is such a thing as "muslim culture" as muslims live all over the world and each of them have a different culture.

Maybe there is an issue with Pakistani, North African or Middle Eastern culture rather than islam. (Ie. shooting Malala Yousufzai because she wants to go to school.)

Equal rights for men and women in the UK does not stem from christianity. Certainly Christianity does not advocate extra martial sex.

Countries often have cultural differences which are not religion based.

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handcream · 19/05/2013 18:38

I do agree that there is often a difference in culture in different countries. Parts of the Middle East are very harsh on women, not allowing them to drive, covered from head to foot, being 2nd class citzens.

However where I really do disagree is when these teachings come to the UK and NO ONE stops it. The man who was let off a sexual offence recently because he said he had been taught in a Muslim school in the UK that women were inferior to men! How do we allow this to go on. We should be immediately naming and shaming this school and closing it down.

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ReallyTired · 19/05/2013 20:43

"However where I really do disagree is when these teachings come to the UK and NO ONE stops it. The man who was let off a sexual offence recently because he said he had been taught in a Muslim school in the UK that women were inferior to men! How do we allow this to go on. We should be immediately naming and shaming this school and closing it down."

Teaching that women are inferior to men should be classified as a hate crime. Muslims who commit sexual offenses should not be let off just because someone told them it was OK. Even the most sexist/ racist of so called muslim men should be able to think independently and follow the laws of the UK. There should be zero tolerance of sex crimes in the UK.

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nailak · 19/05/2013 21:50

yes i agree it is ridiculous that man was let off for crimes because the judge belived his lame excuse. it is utter nonsense.

why do I think they behave this way?

I know you lot might find this weird but when I was hanging around with these types of men when I was a kid I used to think it was gangster rap that made them behave this way. They had mottos such as "thug life" and so on.

What makes them think girls are there to be used and abused? well it is society isnt it? Do you really think they would not do it to an asian girl if they had the opportunity?

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BlueOrange · 19/05/2013 22:16

For those continuing with their racist take on muslim men...

An interesting piece below taken from the independent - by a pakistani woman:

How do we understand the Asian paedophile rings without falling back on lazy, racist stereotypes of Pakistani Muslim men? This was the question I asked myself as news of the Oxford child sex ? paedophile, really ? ring came to light, exactly a year after police busted the Rochdale ring. The circumstances were the same: groups of men with either Pakistani or Muslim backgrounds were caught grooming young, vulnerable white girls and treating them like sexual slaves while authorities looked the other way.
Journalist Allison Pearson wrote a blistering blog post in the Telegraph condemning the police, social services, and legal system?s fear of being seen as racist, which meant hundreds of girls were betrayed by the very mechanisms that were meant to protect them. She called Pakistani Muslim culture a ?Victorian? society where men are taught that women have no value and can be used as sex objects, especially white girls, who, because of their greater freedom as compared to Pakistani Muslim girls, are freely available to be used and abused by these Asian men.

As a Pakistani Muslim woman, I?m very glad these men were caught and brought to justice, and I?m sorry that it didn?t happen sooner. I applaud the UK justice system for coming down hard on them; they deserve it. In Pakistan, we need to enforce our own laws against sexual crimes, and we need to change societal attitudes about the value and status of women. Still, awareness of women's rights is growing in Pakistan ? and will continue to grow. We now have laws against sexual harassment and honour killings, acid attacks and domestic violence, and the Hudood Ordinances, those medieval, bizarre distortions of Islamic law that General Zia wielded to terrorize Pakistani women, have been scrapped.

But society?s hangover from other, less enlightened times still remains: it?s the taboo of secrecy and shame that makes Pakistani parents guard their daughters so strictly ? in our country there has simply never been legal recourse or support for victims of sex crimes. And the men in Oxford and Rochdale, some of whom hail from the poorest, least educated, and most closed-off parts of Pakistan, still carry those attitudes with them. But as I wrote in a blog post about the Rochdale pedophile sex ring last year, that is no excuse for their actions.

It?s fairly obvious from the discussions on this issue that while Islam is not a race, ?Islam? is being used as a euphemism or shorthand for Asian men from Muslim countries. Why not admit that there is an element of misogyny in all religions and cultures that emphasise sexual purity in women and divide girls into ?good? and ?bad? categories? For example, American Mormon kidnap survivor Elizabeth Smart recently told the press that abstinence classes ? a hallmark of American Christian culture which is popular in some British circles ? taught her that being raped made her no more worthwhile than a ?chewed up piece of gum?.

Yes, there are patriarchal, misogynist attitudes towards all women amongst certain subsets of the British Muslim population ? and Pakistani men. Yes, these certain men have been taught by their culture that white girls have no value, but "their" culture is not representative of all Pakistani Muslim culture. Theirs is a culture of racism, misogyny, tribalism, and sexual vulgarity which most Pakistani Muslims shudder at, at home and abroad.

You couldn't possibly call what these men practiced, or were taught in their mosques "Islam" ? it is a distortion of cartoonishly evil proportions, created and perpetuated for their own convenience. In fact, anyone with even the most basic knowledge of Islam will know that the Quran exhorts people to treat women and orphans with care and consideration ? orphans especially. These vulnerable girls, out on the streets, with no family life to speak of and parents who were either absent or uncaring, should have been seen by these men as symbolic orphans, rather than prey ? if only sexual predators were able to make such fine distinctions.

Perhaps the only thing that distinguishes these particular criminals from non-Muslim, non-Asian paedophiles is their modus operandi of working in gangs to systematically groom girls on the street. Other pedophiles have different setups: chatting from the safety and anonymity of their homes, for example, exchanging child pornography through hidden servers on the Internet, or worming their way into the hearts of their mothers and grandmothers before attacking them in their homes.

I have two relatives in the UK, both Pakistani Muslim men, who are practicing doctors, one a GP in East London and the other a cardiologist in Newcastle. Both of them have told me about seeing disturbed, vulnerable girls as a regular part of their practice. My cardiologist relative recounts how every week he treats young pregnant teenagers who have developed heart arrhythmias due to the stress of their situations as single mothers-to-be with little to no family or community support. He rightly points out that the system has failed them, as have their families, but there isn?t a whiff of a Victorian attitude in how he treats these girls or the level of care he provides them.

These are just two out of many Pakistani Muslim men who are trained to offer health and psychological care without judgment, and they perform their jobs with excellence and compassion all across the UK. So the rabble-rousing demand that all Muslims in the UK should ?integrate? while at the same time demonising them as "other", using the Oxford sex ring criminals ? who would be regarded as scum in Pakistan - as representative of all Pakistani Muslim men is an object lesson in false equivalence. Instead, we should be paying attention to the victims, who were abused by criminals and ignored by the authorities because they were lollipops dropped on the floor that nobody cared about once the gum had been chewed.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/oxford-sex-abuse-victorian-misogyny-is-evident-in-all-cultures-which-emphasise-female-purity-8620622.html?origin=internalSearch

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ReallyTired · 19/05/2013 22:25

BlueOrange thanks for that link. It is important that we do not assume that all muslim men are the same. That only fuels racial hatred.

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alemci · 19/05/2013 22:30

Yes that is a good balanced piece Blue and I know that not all Moslem men are like that.

However, I am frustrated with the authorities who are not able to do their jobs properly because they are terrified of being accused of being racist and could they lose their job over it if they took a step of faith IYSWIM and swam against the tide. In this day and age this seems to be a worse crime than dealing effectively with the perpetrators. It should never have become like this.

And perhaps this is mean but why do they have to come here if they have those attitudes. Please stay in Pakistan.

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BlueOrange · 19/05/2013 22:35

reallytired , i agree. Starting a thread talking of a 'muslim issue' with regards to a paedophilia ring is pretty ill-informed. It is as much a muslim issue as jimmy saville abuse scandal is a christian issue.

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EcoRI · 19/05/2013 22:36

alemci They were born here.

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BlueOrange · 19/05/2013 22:48

alemci , the authorities have the ability to do their jobs - by following their own guidelines and procedures. If there are shortcomings in their procedures, thoseneed to beaddressed and rectified.

Not doing your job properly because of a fear of being seen as racist is a lazy, irresponsible and wholly inappropriate attitude for a professional.

Your last statement is very much a small variation on the old racist 'go back to where you came from' remark. Are you saying that there are no british men in this country who do the same thing?

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crescentmoon · 19/05/2013 22:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EcoRI · 19/05/2013 23:02

Great post cm.

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fromparistoberlin · 20/05/2013 10:00

"Several posters seem reluctant to accept the enormity and danger of these Muslim crimes - why?


for me this falls into the category of children being hurt, lets just take a look at the recent news

Philpott children
Those poor children whose pushchair was set on fire and their flat burnt
Tia
April
Oxford Girls
that pregnant Mum that fell off a building, and killed her kids
the phamacist that killed herself and her 2 DD
That man in Lyon yesterday that killed his 2 DS on his first unsupervised custody day


for me the common themes here are unhappiness, poor parenting, depression, severe abuse. and dead or damaged children



hence I cant get even mildly interested in the Muslim thing TBH

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