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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

We Believe You - continued

419 replies

Frontpaw · 01/05/2012 16:58

The old thread was full. It was the first of a few I think.

OP posts:
perfectstorm · 05/05/2012 09:29

Oh - and citing SOLELY THE CONVICTED RAPIST'S OWN WORDS in your comment, without even acknowledging that that is what you are doing in that comment... words fail me. He was convicted. That means the jury did not believe him. Do you understand that?

geekette · 05/05/2012 09:51

sylview in a million years, there is no way, someone picks up a drunk and calls his/her friends over to share sexual activity with the drunk and it is ok. Curtains or no curtains.

Consent may have been given to the original person who picked the drunk up. Questionable at best but that consent does not transcend down a phone line unless the drunk is the one making the call or is screaming down the line for group sex as well...

I know you don't want your daughter going out and getting drunk. But excusing a rapist and thereby, letting a rapist go free to protect your daughter is absolutely one of the most dangerous acts a mother can commit.

Your daughter is a sheffield fan. She needs to know that what those boys did was absolutely bang out of order! She needs to learn not to drink herself into a stupor but she also needs to learn that the people she looks up to are also human and they do do stupid things to and have to face the consequences.

sylview · 05/05/2012 10:51

I find the whole topic very distressing and cannot read some of the experiences given on here without crying but I am getting nowhere nearer understanding the case or my daughter's reaction to it so I think i will stay away from mumsnet for a while.

TreacleSoda · 05/05/2012 13:29

I believe her. And it is totally depressing that in the year 2012 in the UK, people could be so utterly vitriolic towards the victim of a horrific crime. I thought we had moved on, but I fear we have not.

I know a young girl who was abducted and raped, and will have to face her attackers in court. I am sick at the thought of what she will go through, and terrified that she might not get justice. And after all this, I'm horribly frightened that even if she does, there will still be those who doubt her.

dottyspotty2 · 05/05/2012 15:25

Treacle she shouldn't have to face her attackers trial should be done under special measures either video-link or screen if mine doesn't plead guilty its a video-link

DirtyMartini · 05/05/2012 18:51

I posted on the earlier thread that I believe her (though it bears repeating).

Getting a bit irate at reading rape-apologist sentiments on this of all threads, ffs.

Thoughts still with the victim, hope she's coping OK day-to-day.

wizzler · 05/05/2012 19:02

Feak.. I wrote to Nick Clegg and got exactly the same response as you, word for word.

It at least confirms that they must have had a lot of correspondence on the subject if they had to draft a common response, but like you and your DH I am still Hmm

MsGee · 06/05/2012 09:20

I also contacted lib Dems and had the same response. I replied to them that it showed the values of the party if they let him stand .. And that maybe they'd listen to the electorate. Didn't get a response to the second email.

I can't believe they think that's an apology.

ChaoticismyLife · 06/05/2012 11:08

I believe her.

FormSquare · 06/05/2012 14:13

Alcina
FormSquare, I'm interested that you said this: "Rape cases are such an issue that, quite frankly, the Police MUST be absolutely sure that they are doing the right thing."

Because, you know, in this case the police were "absolutely sure" they were "doing the right thing". That's why the police put the case forward for prosecution.

And, you know what? The police believed her. The CPS believed her. The jury believed her. And a big pile of people here believe her.

I believe her.[/quote]

I have actually stated that I was avoiding comment on this case. All I have read is the papers, as have the majority of people on this site (and others) supporting her (this 'I beleive her' rubbish is not neccessary because of the fact the CPS, jury etc did... how about 'we support her'?). The majority of those 'believing' ched have also only access to secondary (at best) if not much more remote sources on the case.

I stated that the police have to be absolutely positive that they are doing the correct thing in response to another poster who bemoaned that the Police appear to be interested in finding out hte truth of the matter, rather than just popping around to the accused, popping a sign around his neck saying 'rapist' and leaving him in the high street.

My post was also considerd to be an 'apology for rapists'; it was not. It was a stand up for those innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur, later PROVEN to be false. People who, incidentaly don't get vast swathes of the t'nterweb put aside for 'i beleive you' campagnes... or even 'sorry, we was wrong' from the Police.

Look around this thread, and others and you can see the emotion that this crime stirs up. I feel one must be careful that such emotions do not conjure up terrible consequences for others or indeed this case.

AbigailAdams · 06/05/2012 14:23

What terrible consequences?

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 06/05/2012 15:32

Thankyou MNHQ for taking this up. Great letter! Thanks

I still believe her, so does DP and so do all my work colleagues.

ChaoticismyLife · 06/05/2012 15:47

I've had a couple of tweets from Chad ‏ @FreeChedwyn

@ChAoTic_JCat no, he made love to a girl who can't remember, apparently. She is not alleging rape, is she? Many girls would be honoured

and

@ChAoTic_JCat um, how do you know she was unable to consent, were you there? I think not! She may have relished it, instigated it.

Empusa · 06/05/2012 16:02

"Many girls would be honoured"

Jesus :(

FormSquare · 06/05/2012 16:28

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FormSquare · 06/05/2012 16:34

'many girls would be honoured'.

Alas, there REALLY is a sub-culture who think like that. Football players, and I suppose a whole raft of other celebs, really are seen as 'the catch' by some girls.

This is possibly where the support for Ched is coming from at the moment. The fact that daft young girls will do all they can to 'snag' a man. I am sure one of the papers ran a thing on WAGs and the girls who follow football for such antics. It included 'wingmen' (in male parlence) who would delay the football players girlfriend in order to allow their mate to make a play (parden the pun) on the targetted bloke.

Likewise a witness reporting a girl phoneing all her mates after having some sort of group thing, and boasting they had been told they were 'good' in bed or similar.

A rotten, murky world from what we can gather.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 06/05/2012 17:04

Wannabe WAGs don't deserve to be raped any more than anybody else.

AbigailAdams · 06/05/2012 17:33

A fight between the two camps???

The judge setting him free because of the publicity??

I don't think it's me that needs to " Use that little thing between your ears, and behind your eyes."

geekette · 06/05/2012 17:40

FormSquare if you also used that little thing between your ears, and behind your eyes you would most likely someday be able to tell what the argument is, be able to focus and not drag discussions all over the place. Just seems like you are trying to score points Confused.

Yes, there are girls who cry "wolf". This discussion is not about a girl who cried wolf. This story is about a girl who a jury "believed" did not cry wolf and we are saying "I believe her" to say we believe she did not make this up. So no point taking us down the road of the "what if", "not fair if she had done", "we are trying to change the justice system to suit her and other girls who eventually cry wolf".
No, we are not. We are saying that if a jury believes she did not cry wolf, then no one should publicly humiliate her and if they do we will not stand by and watch it happen. If you have a problem with us standing up for her then this is the thread for that.

On the other hand, if you want to stand up for those innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur then please start a thread on a judgement which concerns one of them. This is not that case! Stop mixing discussions up! This is a discussion where a jury has found that the crime was actually committed.

WAGS, snagging, wingmen, sub-cultures... there are a lot of sexually oriented moral evils in the world. Lumping them all into one discussion just seems like an attempt to belittle the crime which has been committed.

FormSquare · 06/05/2012 17:47

I think you'll find, as I have indeed mentioned, I have not commented one way or the other on the actual subject of the thread. As mentioned I responded to other sposts (ie the layla post and someone bemoaning how hard it was o get the police to do anything in a rape case).

I have pointed out that the jury and what not believed her. This 'I believe her' nonsense seems to be indicating that she wasn't beleived...

The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist.

Rindercella · 06/05/2012 18:00

This 'I believe her' nonsense Hmm is tied in to the MN We Believe You campaign established to help support survivors of rape. This thread is specifically designed to add support to Ched Evans' victim. It was not designed to discuss the ins and outs of the very small number of men wrongly accused of rape. It seems particularly distasteful to do this on a thread of support for a specific person, where your points are entirely irrelevant. I suggest if you find the whole poor men being accused of rape an interesting subject to discuss then you start your own thread about it.

I do realise I am not the thread police, but I really really object to your attempted derailment of this thread formsquare.

SuePurblybilt · 06/05/2012 18:02

"The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist."

And aren't they more than enough? They're certainly very vocal - why do you object to MN 'using' the We Believe You campaign in this case?

I'm with Rindercella, not great form to to jump onto a support thread for a rape victim and call the other posts 'nonsense' Hmm

geekette · 06/05/2012 18:27

Your earliest comment may have been about layla's case and effectively connected then to a case of a wrongly accused young man but your "e-mob comment" was a direct attack on the "i believe her" campaign which you then connected to layla's case and which you in turn connect back to cases of slander. And you are now sticking to your destruction of the campaign on this thread based on those connections. Hence you are making a comment on the actual subject of this thread.

I can follow discussions pretty damn well and I can see when someone is connecting dots based on hypotheses which are not applicable.

Layla's case was mentioned as someone who may also need support. You were the one who attempted to connect the two cases together. Sorry, most of us can actually read. We can still see that one case had a conviction and that is the case we are campaigning for here. Layla's case has a seperate FB campaign going if you want to join in.
You were the one who made the comment on the "perfect justice system" then causing others to comment on how hard it is to actually get the system to work (get the police to do anything).

This 'I believe her' nonsense (definitely no direct comments on the actual subject of the thread eh?) seems to be indicating that she wasn't beleived...
The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist.

Glad you finally noticed, and the non-believers are shouting it loud and clear (and their intention is clearly to influence the case, if you want to take on a justice changing mob, go talk to them about it).

As much as you don't want it to be a slanging match, which i think was originally the point you wanted to make before heading off in all directions, the young girl must actually feel quite bad about stepping forward and she does need all the support she can get and it should also be loud and clear. My intention, is not to influence the case, but to give her all the personal support she needs. I do not know her personally and therefore have no other way to show my intentions.

Until the "perfect justice system" can make sure that the victim does not have a life sentence of grief, shame and finger pointing, then I am glad that there are people who can continue to give her a reason to live.

BasilEatsFoulEggs · 06/05/2012 22:06

"My post was also considerd to be an 'apology for rapists'; it was not. It was a stand up for those innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur, later PROVEN to be false. "

a) How dare you come to a support thread for the victim of a rapist and start going on about innocent people who have had their lives destroyed by a slur - by which I presume you mean men who have been falsely accused of rape - when this thread is actually to support the innocent woman whose life could well be destroyed by a slur - well hopefully it won't, because she'll get the support she needs, to ensure that rapist Ched Evans and his accomplices and supporters, don't destroy her life.

b) The rest of the internet and the world, constantly "stands up" for that tiny little anthill of men who are falsely accused of rape, while ignoring the Mount Everest of women who are actually raped and have their lives, or years of their lives, dstroyed by the experience.

Let's repeat the figures:

1 in 4 women get raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetimes.

90% don't report because they know there is no chance of justice.

Between 2 and 6% of rape allegations are false. That means between 92 and 98% are true.

Only 6% of rape reports end in a guilty verdict. Most rapists walk free. Most don't even get reported.

The rest of the world, focuses on that tiny number - between 2 and 6% of REPORTED rapes and in doing so, ensures that most rape victims don't report and that when they do, most don't get justice.

On this thread, we are focusing on the need to support this rape victim and all rape victims. But you feel you have to come here with the usual myths.

That is why your posts are rape apologia and have no place on this thread.

If you had any decency at all, you would not be here. Say what you have to say in a more appropriate venue.

Empusa · 07/05/2012 00:15

"This 'I believe her' nonsense seems to be indicating that she wasn't beleived...

The only people who seem to 'not beleive' are those who support the convicted rapist."

Dear christ, do you actually read what you write? So is she being believed or not (according to you)?