Soldiers Beating up teenagers in Iraq...

[MrsBigD]

News of the World

Sky News

Just saw this on Sky News and am once again slightly amazed at the general population...

I can possibly understand the attitudes that the News of the World shouldn't have published the video footage due to maybe putting other soldiers in Iraq under thread of attack - though I don't agree.

However when they showed the result of the opinion poll whether soldiers accused of abuse should be prosecuted I just was amazed... a high percentage said 'NO'... I was just flabbergasted ... so if one is a soldier and happily goes along abusing the people of the country who they are supposed to protect it's ok to abuse them???? surely not.

kittyfish Have you done an Iraqi body count of the war, or is it only the "coalition" losses that are important?

Peacedove,

Firstly the people on this forum are not the US Government - so stop speaking to us as if we were "Why haven't you invaded North Korea yet?"

There are very few people in the UK who support the "war on terror" as it is being waged. Just look at the anti war marches when Blair decided to hop onto Bush's coat-tails.

Setting the world to right / installing democracy is not the "white man's burden" and your really starting to get racist by suggesting it and by tarring everyone with the same brush. In their misguided inflated opinion of themselves the US goverernment has for decaded taken it upon itself to try to wipe install democracy as it sees fit, with varying degrees of success - but nearly always in a ill advised and foolish attempt to police the world as it sees fit. The USSR as was and China have also been guilty of the same high handed behaviour. It most certainly is not right, and I, Mrs White girl over here, do not believe we have any right to tell people what to think or what to do. Wars have often been fought throughout history when pushy "super powers" or Empires feel the need to tell people what to do and how to live.

I do feel there was a problem in Iraq and that the United Nations should have led any kind of action whether that be diplomatic or military and it should have been performed in a different way. What exactly should have been done in your opinion? Or do you not have an opinion just a rage against the situation?

Democracy is being installed as any other forms of government as that is what the US see as the fairest form of government to install, (wierdly as they're not a democracy themselves!) I'm sure you'd be just as upset if they were installing a communist state, supporting an alternative dictatorship or bringing a former monarch back to power. Enforced regimes seldom last long. I don't think this one will, my feeling is we should withdraw and stop telling other nations how to live thier lives and govern.

For someone with a name like peacedove you seem to have a bit chip of hatred on your shoulder.

peacedove, I do not think the troops should be there. I do not agree with taking over other countries for oil. But saddam was a dictator who tortured and killed people, the Iraqis lived in fear of him, anyone who tried to stop him were killed and then their families were killed. I do not agree with the methods in which he was ousted, but surely you cannot be saying that he should have stayed in power? And that kind of person is not going to step down if you just ask them to.

The mass graves that Saddam himself did are evidence of his cruelty. I'm sure if you Google you'll find much more evidence of the killings he ordered.

It still isn't over with Iraq, I have no idea what should be done for the future. Perhaps as you seem to vocal on these issues you might give us your thoughts on how to resolve the situation peacefully?

I am not getting involved and this is my last post to you 'cos I have better things to do.

When you can come up with definitive figures to say that the Coalition has killed more innocent Iraquis than Saddam I may pay attention.

I too have to rush off on the school run, so don't have time to discuss this. But I find myself (surprisingly) in agreement with Peacedove. Except I think George Bush is motivated by evangelical reasons as well, give n his recent statement that " God told me to invade Iraq." It's interesting that there is never this zeal to bring democracy to say, China, Pakistan ( a rogue state, if ever there was one) or the numerous dictatorships in Africa and Latin America.

Sorry folks, my last was directed at the strangely named Peacedove only.

The US's motivation is as dodgy as a used car selesman!

yes poppadum, though I think Bush's evangelical bent has more to do with winning votes than personal Faith.

this from Rhubarb: at least they are trying to establish some kind of democracy there.

and I ask what and who has given them this right?

and when I suggested let us have wars in the West to spread the benefits of war, MB says "Bosnia". Good I say, let us spread it some more., in more developed Western societies.

sharklet I do have a chip on my shoulder, and I do have a rage inside me.

I am sick of my brothers and sisters being invaded for centuries under one pretext or other. I really am sick of it. I do not want any Western soldier in the East, period.

If any one likes war, have it in your own city.

So what is better peacedove? Dictatorship?
I'm fed up of people presuming that us Brits are as gung-ho as our American counterparts, I'm fed up of people thinking that we support the war, I'm fed up of people thinking that we don't care about other cultures, I'm fed up of people thinking that we are politically ignorant.

I ask you again - do you have any better ideas than democracy?

it will probably take an alien attack for us to realise that we are all part of the same blimming species. [have extra-terrestials on the brain today..]

And we have had war in our own city thank you very much, don't try to say that we have no idea what it feels like to be bombed!

Peacedove - what do you think should have happened? No-one in the Middle East appeared to be doing anything to help the Iraqi people, and while I do not condone the war or how the whole situation has been handled I'd be very interested to hear what you think should have been done?

We all know that war is not good, wars have been fought for as long as people have begun to lift tools, over greed, differing beliefs (whether that be religios or political) and grabbing for power, its not right, it doeesn't help and it does not serve "the people" of any of the countries involved.

If the US were at least consistent with thier "war on terror" it might at least gain a little kudos. But they are not, other countries with far worse dictators are left as is becasue they are asset poor, or too big and strong to take on, the US government themselves have actively supported terrorism in their support of the IRA and in many of their activities in connection with the Israeli state. That does not make all Amercians evil, or in support of their government's activity. Nor are all British nationals in support of it.

I'd be really interested to hear what you think should have been done about Saddam's actions or do you condone them? I'd also be interested to hear what you think should happen now in Iraq, and I don't just mean Allied Forces out - I mean a practical solution to the unrest - you must have a positive, practical opinion in their somewhere.

Rhubarb and sharklet^ your questions can be answered automatically if we answer these question:

How did Saddam get into power? Who armed him, and made him start a war with Iran? Who frightened his neighbours into supporting him?

No, the British population, and most of Europe, isn't gung-ho about war BUT the British government did PR for this war.

No matter how good you think democracy is, and should be stuffed down people's throat. I see it as yet another attempt to control the East's resources.

peacedove - several of us asked you a very simple question. Rather than assuming what we think and raging against us for your presumptions why don't you answer it? Or doesn't your rhetoric extend to any further than rage and hatred against all westerners?

Is this the question you have asked: "what do you think should have happened?"

What should have happened is for the US, and the UK and all others to pack up and leave. No bases in the East. Keep them in Europe or in the US. No bombs over Eastern cities. Use your own population for such target practice.

Just get the hell out of the Third world, and let it murder itself. That is far better than the politics the West has played with them.

And for the record, I and most of the others here agree with you on several points.

Yes western meddling in Middle east affairs led to Saddam's dictatorship and much of the mess which has happened since. But answering that doesn't answer my question.

As for your point about the British Government doing PR for this war - what are you reffering to as PR? Public relations? Proportional representation? And as you seem to be holding us responsible for our government's (IMHO illegal) actions then with the same ticket are for example the people of Iraq, or Rwanda or many of the other nation's pummeled by government's with genocidal tendancies responsible for their government's actions too? Again, thats not answered my question either...

I agree that democracy is not the be all and end all of anything and I'm not trying to ram it down anyone's throat. I agree that many of the rson's for this war were motivated by a wish to control the Oil resources in the ME. But again thats not answered my question.

Shall I repeat it for you? In basic english what should have happened? What should happen now? Simple...

discuss....

Would you like all the NGO's, humantitarian aid etc to stop too?

Keep your nose out and let them all die wether help could be lent or not. Thats harsh. Peacedove definately does not suit you.

sharklet I just do not want to hear any more excuses for inavsion of the lands where my brothers and sisters live, any bombings of their cities, or any killing or dehumanisation of their populations.

period!

I see history as one excuse after another to make war on those who are less able to defend themselves.

Europe learnt after two world wars with the filed of war including the continent, that war isn't good. But the crafty politicians and the war industry has shifted wars on to other people's lands.

Now I, who has affinity with those other people as well, am telling you that enough is enough. I don't buy any excuse from the West (and I include Russia) for making war on the third world countries.

sharklet At least get the bases and the armed forces out. And stop meddling in their politics. Let them evolve their own.

So the people who work for the Red Cross, the people who work for Oxfam, the people who try to bring justice and peace into these Third World countries, who work to save lives, you would boot them out too would you peacedove?

Let the Third World murder itself. Sounds a bit like Pontius Pilate to me. What a good idea though! We'll all pull out of all the countries that we are in, including Northern Ireland and so on, and we'll sit back and watch whilst women are raped and children are murdered! Now why didn't I think of that before!

There are no answers to this one peacedove. I am fully aware of who supported Saddam and why. But we cannot undo the past, we can only work with the future. However, given your way the East would have no future as it would happily murder itself!

I'm not making an excuse for the war. It was despicable.

I was asking you for a practical opinion on what should have been done, it doesn;t have to have been aciotn by anyone or intervention from the west in any form.

All I got from you is let them all murder themselves. Thats as bad as Marie Antoinette saying "let them eat cake". I cannot believe you support leaving people to rot under torture and genocide. I can't believe you condone the maltreatment of people who you claim to have such an affinity with.

Now - how about some practical views from you on what should have happened in that situation, and what should happen now. No hatred, no shouting - what should have been done and by whom, and what should be done now. Forget the west - what should hte Middle East have done or the Iraqis or who ever you feel should have done something or should do something now.

sharklet I don't think I made myself clear.

The past is not gone. It only appears to have done, but in effect the past is repeated over and over again. Today, because the WMDs have been discredited, it is democracy.

Let me ask you a question. If someone poisoned you over and over again, would you go to him for medicine?

If you found that the antidote you have been sold had brought upon another sickness, the medicine for which as before obtained from the previous poisoner, and this medicine too has brought you to near death, and this goes on and on.

I am sure at some pint in time you wouldn't want that medicime man anywhere near you.

Another way of not answering the question.

So you crawl off to die, how nice. Pointless debating much more with you.

What should have been done?

I have answered that question.

I have said that this war is not about installing democracy. Democracy is just an excuse.

I have said that I do not want medicine from th=ose who have administered the pison in the first place, over and over again.

I don't trust you, medicine man!

That should be clear enough.