Soldiers Beating up teenagers in Iraq...

[MrsBigD]

News of the World

Sky News

Just saw this on Sky News and am once again slightly amazed at the general population...

I can possibly understand the attitudes that the News of the World shouldn't have published the video footage due to maybe putting other soldiers in Iraq under thread of attack - though I don't agree.

However when they showed the result of the opinion poll whether soldiers accused of abuse should be prosecuted I just was amazed... a high percentage said 'NO'... I was just flabbergasted ... so if one is a soldier and happily goes along abusing the people of the country who they are supposed to protect it's ok to abuse them???? surely not.

Peacedove, surely the situation in Iraq is so unstable that it is necessary to have the allied troops there. We invaded the country (justifiably or not so - another argument). Would it not be an act of monumental irresponsibility to clear out completely while the new fledgling democracy is trying to get established.
I was not in favour of the invasion of Iraq, but I strongly believe that now we have gone in and deposed Saddam, we have a duty to protect those trying to form a Government.

Peacedove - no you haven't made yourself clear.

Your quite deliberatly avoiding answerinf question you feel are to difficult, and which you have never taken the time to think through.

Theres no point in debating with you becasue you clearly want to but words and sentiments into my mouth instead of answering a perfetly simple question and giving you the chance to say what you feel could be done practically to put right the current situation. I was actually trying to show you some respect and take on board your opinion. I would genuinely like to know what people like you beleive should be done on a practical level. No-one seems to want to say, and to be honest its just too hard getting through all the racism , hatred and name calling. People are willing to listen but you have nothing to say...

Its very sad

I just hope your fellow country-men who actually have to live there agree with you. If you hate the West interfering so much, can I just ask why you decided to move here? It's like me constantly criticising the French when I live here.

If the troops pull out and the East does indeed murder itself, will you be watching from the comfort of your UK home?

sharklet and Bugsy I have made myself very, very clear.

You see this as an isolated event. I don't.

I see this so-called installation of democracy as an attempt to buy time so that the US bases can be firmly in place in Iraq, and there is a government that toes the US's line.

don't worry pD, China is coming! That's going to be the next superpower, isn't it?

Rhubarb Not only do I live here, I encourage everyone in the third world to make the West their home, by hook or by crook.

I tell them, if you don't move to the West, some day they are going to bomb and kill your children, because this is what they have been doing under one pretext or another. They have made the West safe from war, but they still want war, so they keep on inventing more and more horrible weapons to try on you, so if you are smart and love your children, move to the West.

The only countries that won't be invaded are those with WMDs.

That much is clear.

I don't want to get into an argument over Iraq, but I have just been to the Churchill museum, where I saw Churchill's speech opposing Indian independence, on the grounds that ( I paraphrase here) it was the British government's bounden duty to prevent India from being torn apart by warring tribes, religions and primitive customs. Of course, he was as wrong as he could be, and new research shows that the greatest Briton of all was a racist reactionary. History repeats itself.

Moron.

eloquent reasoning there, rhubarb.

To pd.
Why not taint us all with the same brush? We're all racists, we all like killing people, we all supported the war, none of us care, we are all ignorant, etc etc.

I'm leaving this thread before I hurl my pc out of the window.

Peacedove - where did I say I felt this was just an isolated event. I don't, I'm not stupid and I find the whole thing very sinister. Its one of many things particularly with regard to US forgeign policy that are done with a perhaps respectable to some onlookers sentiment but are actually have a far deeper intent behind them.

I don't agree with imposing democracy, I have never said that. I too find it disturbing that as the US intentions stand currently this could mean a long term prescence in Iraq. That would be deeply wrong but I agree it is probably one of the intentions.

You ust have very rose tinted glasses if you think that sitting back and saying let them all murder themselves is a solution to anything. IMHO its an opinion that hsows a lack of respect for those people. I'm not asking you to support the west's action, or like them or not to distrust them. I'm asking you what the Middle Eastern/ Arab / Muslim / Third World / Iraqi people should do in this situation. If something tangible had been done or was being cone about the Saddam situation prior to the Iraq war it would have been a lot more difficult for the US to have bullied its way in.

I agree that there are big pharmacutical companies who have abused their power in the third world (The Constant gardener giving a literal example) however NGO's like Oxfam et al are there for humanitarian reasons and are not poisoning but helping. Why does the third world ask for help if it doesn;t want it. Taking the example of the earthquake in Kashmir - that was certainly not brought about by any ind of evil doing on the part of the west in any guise, but our help was requested, and when it was felt not enough aid had been sent it was demanded (and rightly so) are you saying we should have turn a deaf ear?

I'd stil like to hear an answer to my question. I know its pointless as you haven't a positive opinion in you, but all the same...

You've made yourself very unclear, but you are sounding like someone condoning genocide.

I provides solution to those of the third world. I tell them to move away and settle in the West. I tell them that the governments of the West will ensure there is no large scale murder in their own countries, but these governments are still bloodthirsty, so they will keep trying to control the third world. In the process there will be dictators, replaced by democracies, aided by bribery, there will be wars, and the third world inhabitants will be pawns.

Except for those who can wield a weapon. Then there won't be overt war.

So anyone who is sensible will move to where it will be safe.

""Not only do I live here, I encourage everyone in the third world to make the West their home, by hook or by crook.

I tell them, if you don't move to the West, some day they are going to bomb and kill your children, because this is what they have been doing under one pretext or another. They have made the West safe from war, but they still want war, so they keep on inventing more and more horrible weapons to try on you, so if you are smart and love your children, move to the West.

I provides solution to those of the third world. I tell them to move away and settle in the West. I tell them that the governments of the West will ensure there is no large scale murder in their own countries, but these governments are still bloodthirsty, so they will keep trying to control the third world. In the process there will be dictators, replaced by democracies, aided by bribery, there will be wars, and the third world inhabitants will be pawns.

Except for those who can wield a weapon. Then there won't be overt war.

So anyone who is sensible will move to where it will be safe.""""

???????????? bizarre beyond belief...

are you serious PD? or just trying to wind people up?

tiredemma, you might not find it so bizarre if you came from a war-torn or economically deprived part of the world.

poppadum - dont believe all the official propaganda you hear in UK about people loving Churchill either...

OE saying 'barm pot'

Churchill saved GB from Nazi Germany and was a great leader and a great man. Sorry but how come he is under fire now? His opinion of Indian independance was a valid opinion at the time. Now we see that it was an incorrect opinion but how can he be to blame for that?

As for Peacedove, you make me laugh. You spout rhetoric and you never back it up. Your arguments are completely emotive and without factual base. You live in a country that allows you freedom of speech and yet you hate that country. ?????

Churchill may have saved GB from the Nazis, but he was hardly so particular about the rest of us, particularly the Iraquis.Below is a quote from him ( sorry, i can't be bothered to do links) on how to deal with the Arab uprising in 1920.

"I do not understand this sqeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilised tribes." (The uncivilised tribes being the Iraquis and Kurds)

As for your argument that his opinion of Indian independence was a valid one at the time, Kittyfish, surely the same argument could be made for every colonial occupation? They were all justified at the time, or were they? There were great and good governments in India before ever the British came along, so Churchill was talking rot. I know people who still rememeber the great Bengal famine, where millions of people died under British misrule. Could Churchill have legitimately believed that this was governance of a high order? You will forgive me if I find it hard to feel any gratitude towards the Empire. Indian soldiers fought and died in World War II along with the British; the difference is that they were forced into it.

I am in favour of praising Churchill's leadership, just not whitewashing his many faults, racism one of them. May not be relevant to this subject, but I find many parallels.

He wasn't wild about the protesting miners in Tonypandy, either.

Oh please! don't let's start with quotes from world leaders - where will it end? I mean, you could go way back to the rack and beheadings in this country - fortunately we've moved on since then - or rather some of us have!

Churchill for all his faults didn't butcher his own countrymen

Fair enough, Jools two. [ smile] My point though was that I find it very hard to swallow this business about it being our bounden duty to establish democracy in Iraq, and I think most colonised people have swallowed enough of this guff over the years for it to leave a very bad taste.I think the troops have stayed there long enough, and I agree with Sharklet that they are probably going to stay there indefinitely, or until a government friendly to the US is installed.

Peacedove - let me see if I understand you correctly. You live in the West because you think this is where you will be safe. You despise the West for its policies and attitudes to the East. You think that your 'brothers and sisters' in the Third World should be left to murder themselves. You think that everyone in the Third World should move to 'the West'. Is this an accurate description of your views?

Peacedove has done his usual disappearing act when faced with questions he can't answer.

Poppadum - you say that we should withdraw from Iraq but what will happen if we do? I would imagine that a rapid descent into chaos would follow any coalition withdrawal followed by another dictatorial and brutal regime. You also say we are there until a government friendly to the USA is installed. Sorry if I missed something but I thought recent elections were monitored and found to be completely fair. The present elected government is legitimate and not particularly friendly to US/UK involvement but also sees that any coalition withdrawal at present will lead to anarchy.

on the subject of Churchill, he wasn't that great to his own people either. in 1926, during the general strike, he was reported to have suggested using machine guns to deal with the strikers, and he admired Mussolini for his dealings with strikes and 'commies' in his own country. The people of the east end had to watch whilst food laden barges sailed past them on the Thames, accompanied by armed soldiers. He may have had his good points during the war, but he was fairly ruthless to anyone who didn't agree with him.