More on the cartoons for those without broadband

[Blandmum]

Here is a question.

Muslims says that the prophet cannot be protrayed and that for anyone to do so is a basphamy. But how can you blaspheme something you don't belive in?

As I understand it orthodox Jews say that it is a blasphamy for someone to write out the word of god. They would write G*d. Does this mean that Jews have the right to demand that Muslims stop writing the word Allah (since Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews)

what would jesus do bloss?

md....going to look up telegraph editorial

Iposted a link on the other thread-Friday it was.
Charles Moore's Comment.

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would he describe the divine prophet of another faith as a pernicious man. would he feel hate for another's faith. a very beautiful faith in some respects just as all the major religions have truth and beauty at their heart imo.

did he not exhort us to embrace the other? to respect difference?

Unfortunately, I'm considered part of the 'silent majority' often criticised for not speaking up against extemist views.
I don't know one single Muslim who has extreme views. All the Muslims I know, from my community and those I grew up with, are all decent law abiding people. They are Doctors, Accountants, Dentists etc and even members of the police force.
As far as I know, most Muslims are like me and just want to get on in life. We work hard, take pride in our religion and culture and want to enjoy life too.
I actually get fed up off having to continuously be expected to apolgise for lunatics who have nothing to do with me or my views and to be always defending my religion.

You know, idealistic and naive it sounds I so wish that we could start again with no religion. On most levels I suspect the world would be a mush better place. It really makes me so sad to think that some people hold so much hate for others and that we are all here arguing about it.

Not relevent at all but I don't have a good understanding of religion full stop. So I can't get deeply into this.

Flossam, its never religion that is the cause of all this strife. If everyone followed their religion, we would all live in your idyllic world, side by side.
Its politics that are the problem.

perhaps. i am naive as i said. just how it looks from my little world.

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I know that mine is pretty much a communist view. And I know all the reasons why communism just dosen't work. COmpletely. But a large part of me hates the fact that we all seem to have to find a reason not to get along, when really there should be no reason at all.

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Wintersun, Thank you for your posts. Everyone accepts that muslimslike you are in the majority....in fact there has been a similar post from anothe muslim MNetter on another thread, so you are not alone on MN

I find it astonishing that saadia suggests that we should be tried and punished for breaken a tennent of her faith at 10.56 she said

'In my ideal world, you would be tried and sentenced.'

So we must respect and follow the teachings of a faith we do not hold and if not we should be tried and punished. So what next, must I be veiled? Does my husband have the right to divorse me by saying so three time, pork and beer will be right out, or you would have the right to try and punish me by whipping me, right?

Wintersun, can I just say your post happened at the best possible time , and it restored my faith in human nature. Thank you again.

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Bloss,

Beautifully and politely argued. Moondog, I am not fooled by the "saying appalling things and withdrawing wounded" tactic either. And flinging accusations of Islamaphobia everytime someone like you points out the folly of Saadia's ways is another tactic that fools no one.

Wintersun, thank you for stepping in. I too find the cartoons borderline offensive. But, as I have said ad nauseum, we all have a right to offend each other.

I am going to withdraw simply because I suspect I can argue till I am blue in the face and it won't help convince some people of the importance of free speech. Fair enough, until Sharia comes we can all agree to disagree.

I was searching for the Sharia punishment for this sort of case. a quick google found this on the Wikipedia

'The modern concept of freedom of speech on political and religious matters arises from the European Enlightenment of the 1700s and was alien to religions such as Christianity and Judaism in their pre-modern forms. Similarly, Sharia law in its most vigorous interpretations does not allow freedom of speech on such matters as criticism of the prophet Muhammad.

The Qur'an says that Allah curses the one who harms the Prophet in this world and He connected harm of Himself to harm of the Prophet. There is no dispute that anyone who curses Allah is killed and that his curse demands that he be categorized as an unbeliever. The judgement of the unbeliever is that he is killed. [...] There is a difference between ... harming Allah and His Messenger and harming the believers. Injuring the believers, short of murder, incurs beating and exemplary punishment. The judgement against those who harm Allah and His Prophet is more severe -- the death penalty. ("The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who curses the Prophet or finds fault with him" [9])
On the other hand, the denial of freedom of speech by Muslims is not only restricted to those Muslims supporting the most vigorous interpretations. In Egypt, public authorities went so far as to try to annul, without his consent, the marriage of Prof. Nasr Abu Zayd when he got in conflict with an orthodox Islamic cleric from the Al-Azhar University in Cairo. The cleric had condemned Abu Zayd's reading of the Qur'an as being against the orthodox interpretation and labelled him an apostate (seen as a non-believer and consequently not permitted to marry or stay married to a Muslim woman). Abu Zayd fled to the Netherlands, where he is now a professor at the university of Leiden. Nevertheless, the case illustrates how far more common or average interpretations can go.'

So it would seem that the opunishment under sharia law would be death, at least under some interpretations.

Is this what you want saadia?

And was this really so hard for me to find? It took about a minute, which makes you 'I don't know what the punishment would be, I'd have to ask an expert' seem rather strange.....or did you just prefer not to let us know what the punishment would be?

PD does that sometimes, I think, he 'edits out' the more unpleasent aspects of sharia law by saing, 'I don't know I am not an expert'

Apparently the cartoons have today been published in Israel, so one can only imagine that this will all start all over again. And the protester who dressed as a suecide bomber on Saturday has turned out to be on licence for drug dealing. He had served half of a 6 year sentence, and it seems he may be on his way back inside. I guess for him that's lenient, he was lucky not to have been shot, and who would blame any police for shooting some dressed as a suecide bomber.

Wintersun it is so nice to read your posts. I think the majority of us have no doubt that the majority of Muslems are law abiding citizins who just want to live in a peaceful society, so sad that there are so many others on here, and in the rest of the world who are prepared to give your religion a bad name, you should not have to apologise for who you are

FROM BBC-

Cartoon protester was drug dealer

Omar Khayam was still on licence at the time of his protest
A Muslim demonstrator who imitated a suicide bomber in London to protest over cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad is a convicted drug dealer.
Omar Khayam, 22, of Bedford, was jailed in 2002 and released on licence last year after serving half of his sentence for dealing heroin and cocaine.

So he can follow sharia law as and when he feels then?

(When I saw those pics I thought he was wearing one of those tool-belt-jackets that gay men seem to wear all the time. The extremist gay wing, hmm, probably not the effect he was after though.)

This sharia law thing fills my veins with indescribable horror.

And it makes me pity Muslim women and girls.

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Why Saria Law Must Be Opposed

Click on the pistures at the top for stories of what happened to these people.

I can understand the rational behind your arguments MB, you have a partner in the army, part of the Iraqi invasion force, yes? I can see you have to argue your position as to do otherwise would mean arguing against the life you've chosen for you and your children. But I think that biases your opinion some what and leaves you resistant to some of the subtler things that have been argued on this thread. There are others whose antagonism to Islam is thinly veiled for various reasons, their own religious dogma for one. They all have an interest in 'winning' this debate, although they don't seem to understand that we've all lost it.

This thread clearly demonstrates that playing zero sum games takes everyone down with you and no one seems to care about Mumsnet in all of this.

if being opposed to Sharia law and curbs on freedom of speech makes me antagonistic to Islam, I am happy to be antagonistic AND a religous dogmatic. and I would argue that this discussion is important, in so far as it has revealed that there are people like saadia, who while born and bred here, would actually like to see people like bloss and me tried and sentenced for insulting the prophet. Yet they don't want to give me the same freedoms. If you think that makes it a zero sum game, fine. For me, its an eye-opener.

I can't comment on the effects on Mumsnet, as I am new here. I would argue that Mumsnet is strong enough to withstand these chasms. Or if it isn't, it should be.