More on the cartoons for those without broadband

[Blandmum]

Here is a question.

Muslims says that the prophet cannot be protrayed and that for anyone to do so is a basphamy. But how can you blaspheme something you don't belive in?

As I understand it orthodox Jews say that it is a blasphamy for someone to write out the word of god. They would write G*d. Does this mean that Jews have the right to demand that Muslims stop writing the word Allah (since Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews)

Message withdrawn

I think I have no option now but to leave Mumsnet. For people who claim to love freedom of speech and thought you are incredibly intolerant about Islam. I'm not sure I want to continue conversing with people who despise my religion so much.

You're free to do as you will Saadia.
Enjoy the privilege accorded to you.

Hang on, hang on, hang on Saadia! I absolutely respect what islamic scholars have done! And as an educator I actually go to great pains to make sure the Islamic greats of science, art and mathemmatics, for example, are fairly represented. As I said, I do have respect for you. I am not damning anyone. On the contrary, you are damning me. I am respecting your right to believe what you like, draw (or not draw) what you like, wear what you like, worship as you like, and I respect everyone the same way (as long as they are not hurting others). For my open-mindedness, you are telling me I need to be tried and punished.

Yes Bloss it is daft, but so scary.

Though I find it interesting Saadia that yu say:

"You have taken one issue - blaspheming against the Prophet (pbuh) - and used it to damn an entire religion"

I didn't do that, as I have explained above. BUT you seem to think this issue does successfully damn Islam, to the extent that you have to say "see the bigger picture - think of the art and science and civilization etc etc etc".

And you're right, once upon a time, Muslims and others did live side by side, and civilazation was the name of the game, instead of extremism and destruction. That makes me wonder - is it Islam that's at fault, or intolerance as applied to Islam?

Saadia, you don't have to defend yourself or your religion here. You can't reach these people, they are not interested in listening anymore thats very clear. Don't get angry too, leave them to it..

Saadia, I don't despise your religion. I despise intolerance. Islam does not equal intolerance, for, as you say, there has been and can be peacable co-existence. The fact that there are intolerant Muslims and we are arguing with one of them does not mean we are intolerant of Islam.

Understand?

mt and sl thanks for your comments. I'm not angry just very very sad.

The same goes for you snowleapord.
Youdon't have to defend yourself.
it is abundantly clear that you are tsaking issue with a few points,not Islam as awhole.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is either stupid or has difficulty processing written information.

Clever tactic used by PD and Saadia.
Say appalling things and then withdrew,wounded,when people take issue.
I'm not fooled.

I know Moondog, it's east to get worked up and it's easy to get drawn in - I was meant to be having a bath.

But it's fear speaking here. I've just embarked on the fruitless task of trying to get the tolerance concept through to one Muslim, because I am so scared for my future and the destruction that could end up being wrought over this ridiculousness. As if it would help!

Instead I should just enjoy peace and freedom while I can. So off for my bath methinks.

At the very least you (and plenty of other) have had the scales fall from their eyes.
As I said,our Guardian reading weedy liberal ways are just what these people love.
You have a good soak.

I've had to crack a beer. MD's off the sauce, it was an emergency .

Beer does sound like a great idea though...

It's one of those stubby ones. Just a small one . . .

I have followed this debate with much interest and I have to say that I can't believe some of the views here.
I am also Muslim and have found the cartoons offensive but think the protests are way out of hand.
I have decided to contribute to say that not all Muslims want to impose Sharia law and not all Muslims wish death and punishment to anyone who expresses an offensive view towards our prophet and religion. I believe, in this context, that God will judge and punish. We, as Muslims, must live and abide within the laws of the society we choose to live in and it is our duty to present Islam in a positive way.
There are some extreme 'Muslim' groups who are hell bent on creating divisions within our society. There are also people on the 'other side' who are going to take advantage of this and send out more anti-Islamic messages.
I take faith in knowing that all around the world, the majority of people are decent law abiding people who just want to live peacfully, to work, to own a home, to have a family etc

Thank you for your post. A Muslim female friend of mine back in the States has been keeping abreast of cartoon fracas in the news. I think she put it best when she told me that these extremists will target anyone who doesn't buy their brand of Islam, be they Western, their own countrymen, women, even their own kindred.

Nice post WS.
I find myself nodding vigorously at the last line especially. You are absolutely right.

fwiw, i read both the jenkins and fisk (i love him) article and think they were both fantastic.

we're not doing what they advised at all.

especially you bloss... your hatred of islam is very thinly veiled imo.

Nonsense sophable.
Bloss has spoken most intelligently.

I have been incredibly impressed.

"Out of respect for you, I have refrained from explaining exactly what I think of Mohammed - I know you would find it distressing.

But some of your attitudes and some of the doctrines of Islam disgust me. They fill me with horror and anger and repulsion."

they are not doctrines, they are doctrines as interpreted by practitioners. i expect hardcore christian bloss would have been entirely with the fanatic on newsnight that accused the head of the womens muslim group of not being a muslim due to not wearing hijab.

not nonsense at all i'm afraid. and whether your experiences in turkey are behind them or not, you have your own prejudices md too....

It is true, Expat. The extremists don't care who they target. They consider non-extreme Muslims as non-Muslims.
In fact, their agenda is political rather than religious anyway.

incidentally if you read them, what did you think of the two articles below md?

Message withdrawn

Idid read them soph, and concur with a lot of what is said.
In much of the ME nutter dictators are replaced by nutter clerics,this is true and I can see how this radicalbrand of Islam appeals greatly in the face of the oafish American jackboot.
'We' have only ourselves to blame in many cases.

Disagree with the point about a similar furore if Christ was thus lampooned. I refer you to Gilbert&George's present London exhibition.

Yes, cringe at the behavious of American squaddies in ME,striding into mosques in their muddy boots and such like.
(Incidentally I live in the city in Turkey where Bush wanted to station thousands of troops at the start of present Iraqi hullabaloo. Thank God the Turks refused.)

Yes,the cartoons were deeply offensive,noone denies that. This however is not the point we are arguing.
I refer you to The Daily Telegraph's recent editoriala for my take on things.