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332 replies

Blandmum · 06/02/2006 19:50

Here is a question.

Muslims says that the prophet cannot be protrayed and that for anyone to do so is a basphamy. But how can you blaspheme something you don't belive in?

As I understand it orthodox Jews say that it is a blasphamy for someone to write out the word of god. They would write G*d. Does this mean that Jews have the right to demand that Muslims stop writing the word Allah (since Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews)

OP posts:
poppadum · 06/02/2006 21:56

rhubarb,

Its no wonder you are depressed. I read that book and couldn't sleep for weeks. Throw it away and read some good chicklit instead. Or better still, Vogue or Elle or some complete trash! and go hug your kiddies and eat some chocolate.

This is a fatwa in the name of the blessed sheep.

Rhubarb · 06/02/2006 21:56

Because religion represents so much more than just your country. It represents an after life, a way of living, something to worship. It is far more powerful and far more frightening than patriotism.

Rhubarb · 06/02/2006 21:56

poppadum
Which religion are you then?

poppadum · 06/02/2006 21:57

i am off to hug my daughter and eat a whole bar of Green and Black Dark chocolate. Night.

poppadum · 06/02/2006 21:58

I am Hindu, actually, Rhubarb. well, sort of. There are many aspects of Hinduism I don't agree with, and many I love. I pick and choose!

Rhubarb · 06/02/2006 22:01

Nighty night!

saadia · 06/02/2006 22:03

I am not asking anyone to revere, respect or like the Prophet (pbuh). I am asking that you do not insult or lie about him. I can see from this debate that that is too much to ask. Why do you want to insult him? This is such a circular and going-nowhere debate but I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

I do understand you peoples' beliefs - I grew up here, studied here, I have an English Lit degree, I think I have an understanding of why you think like you do and do you know what, there is a vacancy at the heart of it. There is a complete emptiness where faith should be. Why are we here? What is the point of it all? I haven't been brainwashed. Islam makes perfect sense to me. It makes sense to me that, given that most of all have a sense of morality/right and wrong, that we will one day be held accountable for our actions.

It makes sense to me that we have a Creator, that we are not here by accident, that there is a plan for us all.

bloss you may be ok with people using the words Jesus Christ as an expletive but it does in fact offend me. Every time it is used I wince because it demeans his memory. Every image of him that is made insults him and detracts from his real message.

You think Muslims are wrong and being overly sensitive. I think every time Christians allow a blasphemy to go unchallenged they are being under-sensitive.

Caligula · 06/02/2006 22:08

But saadia no-one's saying you're not entitled to challenge insults. Just that you can't expect never to come across them. And that the particular method chosen by some of the madder elements this weekend, was inappropriate.

Anyway I feel like I've said all this ad nauseum and it looks like bedtime, so good night.

divamummy · 06/02/2006 22:12

whats this all about cartoon, sorry i dont watch tv these days, tv is on cbb`s all day untill 7 and after that i just turn it off, cause im too tired
ok im asian and im from buddist family, but since im 18 i choose not to be religious. i respect all of them, and i have friends and family who is in different religion.
i agree with rhubarb, whole world have been better without any religion, for centuries and century we had religious fights and war, and its never going to stop. sad.

bloss · 06/02/2006 22:19

Message withdrawn

Blandmum · 06/02/2006 22:19

the thing is saadia is that some people are insisting not asking, that we follow the muslim teaching that the prophet is never drawn. how can non believers be forced to follow a religious teaching that they dont hold?

as your friend i would choose not to, but in fact I don't think that it isva blasphamy.

what might happen next, hindus demanding that you and i stop eating beef?

OP posts:
monkeytrousers · 06/02/2006 22:24

Like we're not depressed enough already Caligula - what was the point of that? I'm beginning to think it's not you, someone has hijacked your senses. Why else would you continue to defend the rational of free speech so irrationally?

For the rest of us who have no stomach for this continued assault on civility and reason I suggest we leave them to gloat over their 'success', phyrric though it is, let them enjoy it it seems to be what they want and they won't shut up until they have it.

It's been a bad day for free speech, Mumsnet (good work, it must have been very difficult for you) and for a few of us individually. Some collective madness has infected this thread. For those of us who know better lets please just call it a day now for gods sake - otherwise I really don't know what you're trying to force here...

Kathlean · 06/02/2006 22:27

Saadia, are you saying that no other religion has any faith and is just completly empty and hollow?? Be it christian, hindu or welsh sheepism and that none of them think about the whys and whats of everything?

Are you also saying that no other people apart from Muslims have any sense of morality or right and wrong whether they are religious or not?

That is how I have interpreted you message.

ScummyMummy · 06/02/2006 22:33

I think you are right actually, saadia- I do have a "vacancy" at heart if by that you mean a lack of a burning sense of clarity, explanation and belief. I am wishy washy and unsure and I quite like that uncertainty. And that makes it so hard for me to understand how a picture of a prophet or saying "Oh Jesus" can be as offensive as many people clearly find them. I just find that baffling. And whilw I quite agree that I think like that because of my vacancy, I can't help that. I think that age old saying sums it up well:
to those who believe, no explanation (of God/Allah?whoever) is necessary
to those who don't believe, no explanation (of God/Allah?whoever) is possible
It makes for debates like this with no middle ground that go round and round in circles with everyone becoming more and more upset.

ScummyMummy · 06/02/2006 22:37

I couldn't see anything wrong with what Caligula said, monkeytrusers.

singednotburned · 06/02/2006 22:38

An interesting article:

Simon Jenkins
February 05, 2006

I think, therefore I am, said the philosopher. Fine. But I think, therefore I speak? No way.

Nobody has an absolute right to freedom. Civilisation is the story of humans sacrificing freedom so as to live together in harmony. We do not need Hobbes to tell us that absolute freedom is for newborn savages. All else is compromise.

Should a right-wing Danish newspaper have carried the derisive images of Muhammad? No. Should other newspapers have repeated them and the BBC teasingly ?flashed? them to prove its free-speech virility? No. Should governments apologise for them or ban them from repeating the offence? No, but that is not the issue.

A newspaper is not a monastery, its mind blind to the world and deaf to reaction. Every inch of published print reflects the views of its writers and the judgment of its editors. Every day newspapers decide on the balance of boldness, offence, taste, discretion and recklessness. They must decide who is to be allowed a voice and who not. They are curbed by libel laws, common decency and their own sense of what is acceptable to readers. Speech is free only on a mountain top; all else is editing.

Despite Britons? robust attitude to religion, no newspaper would let a cartoonist depict Jesus Christ dropping cluster bombs, or lampoon the Holocaust. Pictures of bodies are not carried if they are likely to be seen by family members. Privacy and dignity are respected, even if such restraint is usually unknown to readers. Over every page hovers a censor, even if he is graced with the title of editor.

To imply that some great issue of censorship is raised by the Danish cartoons is nonsense. They were offensive and inflammatory. The best policy would have been to apologise and shut up. For Danish journalists to demand ?Europe-wide solidarity? in the cause of free speech and to deride those who are offended as ?fundamentalists . . . who have a problem with the entire western world? comes close to racial provocation. We do not go about punching people in the face to test their commitment to non-violence. To be a European should not involve initiation by religious insult.

Many people seem surprised that a multicultural crunch should have come over religion rather than race. Most incoming migrants from the Muslim world are in search of work and security. They have accepted racial discrimination and cultural subordination as the price of admission. Most Europeans, however surreptitiously, regard that subordination as reasonable.

What Muslims did not expect was that admission also required them to tolerate the ridicule of their faith and guilt by association with its wildest and most violent followers in the Middle East. Islam is an ancient and dignified religion. Like Christianity its teaching can be variously interpreted and used for bloodthirsty ends, but in itself Islam has purity and simplicity. Part of that purity lies in its abstraction and part of that abstraction is an aversion to icons.

The Danes must have known that a depiction of Allah as human or the prophet Muhammad as a terrorist would outrage Muslims. It is plain dumb to claim such blasphemy as just a joke concordant with the western way of life. Better claim it as intentionally savage, since that was how it was bound to seem. To adapt Shakespeare, what to a Christian ?is but a choleric word?, to a Muslim is flat blasphemy.

Of all the casualties of globalism, religious sensibility is the most hurtful. I once noticed in Baghdad airport an otherwise respectable Iraqi woman go completely hysterical when an American guard set his sniffer dog, an ?unclean? animal, on her copy of the Koran. The soldier swore at her: ?Oh for Christ?s sake, shut up!? She was baffled that he cited Christ in defence of what he had done.

Likewise, to an American or British soldier, forcibly entering the women?s quarters of an Arab house at night is normal peacekeeping. To an Arab it is abhorrent, way beyond any pale. Nor do Muslims understand the West?s excusing such actions, as does Tony Blair, by comparing them favourably with those of Saddam Hussein, as if Saddam were the benchmark of international behaviour.

It is clearly hard for westerners to comprehend the dismay these gestures cause Muslims. The question is not whether Muslims should or should not ?grow up? or respect freedom of speech. It is whether we truly want to share a world in peace with those who have values and religious beliefs different from our own. The demand by foreign journalists that British newspapers compound their offence shows that moral arrogance is as alive in the editing rooms of northern Europe as in the streets of Falluja. That causing religious offence should be regarded a sign of western machismo is obscene.

The traditional balance between free speech and respect for the feelings of others is evidently becoming harder to sustain. The resulting turbulence can only feed the propaganda of the right to attack or expel immigrants and those of alien culture. And it can only feed the appetite of government to restrain free speech where it really matters, as in criticising itself.

There is little doubt that had the Home Office?s original version of its religious hatred bill been enacted, publishing the cartoons would in Britain have been illegal. There was no need to prove intent to cause religious hatred, only ?recklessness?. Even as amended by parliament the bill might allow a prosecution to portray the cartoons as insulting and abusive and to dismiss the allowed defence that the intention was to attack ideas rather than people.

The same zest for broad-sweep censorship was shown in Charles Clarke?s last anti-terrorism bill. Its bid (again curbed by parliament) was to outlaw the ?negligent?, even if unintended, glorification of terrorism. It wanted to outlaw those whose utterances might have celebrated or glorified a violent change of government, whether or not they meant to do so. Clarke proposed to list ?under order? those historical figures he regarded as terrorists and those he decided were ?freedom fighters?. The latter, he intimated, might include Irish ones. This was historical censorship of truly Stalinist ambition. By such men are we now ruled.

That a modern home secretary should seek such powers illustrates the danger to which a collapse of media self-restraint might lead. Last week there were demands from some (not all) Muslim leaders for governments to ?apologise? for the cartoons and somehow forbid their dissemination. It was a demand that Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, commendably rejected. It assumed that governments had in some sense allowed the cartoons and were thus in a position to atone for them. Many governments might be happy to fall into this trap and seek to control deeds for which they may have to apologise. The glib assumption of blame where none exists feeds ministerial folie de grandeur, as with Blair?s ludicrous 1997 apology for the Irish potato famine.

In all matters of self-regulation the danger is clear. If important institutions, in this case the press, will not practise self-discipline then governments will practise it for them. Ascribing evil consequences to religious faith is a sure way of causing offence. Banning such offence is an equally sure way for a politician to curry favour with a minority and thus advance the authoritarian tendency. The present Home Office needs no such encouragement.

Offending an opponent has long been a feature of polemics, just as challenging the boundaries of taste has been a feature of art. It is rightly surrounded by legal and ethical palisades. These include the laws of libel and slander and concepts such as fair comment, right of reply and not stirring racial hatred. None of them is absolute. All rely on the exercise of judgment by those in positions of power. All rely on that bulwark of democracy, tolerance of the feelings of others. This was encapsulated by Lord Clark in his defining quality of civilisation: courtesy.

Too many politicians would rather not trust the self-restraint of others and would take the power of restraint onto themselves. Recent British legislation shows that a censor is waiting round every corner. This past week must have sent his hopes soaring because of the idiot antics of a few continental journalists.

The best defence of free speech can only be to curb its excess and respect its courtesy.

singednotburned · 06/02/2006 22:39

Another one:

Robert Fisk
04 February 2006

We can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ.

So now it's cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed with a bomb-shaped turban. Ambassadors are withdrawn from Denmark, Gulf nations clear their shelves of Danish produce, Gaza gunmen threaten the European Union. In Denmark, Fleming Rose, the "culture" editor of the pip-squeak newspaper which published these silly cartoons - last September, for heaven's sake - announces that we are witnessing a "clash of civilizations" between secular Western democracies and Islamic societies. This does prove, I suppose, that Danish journalists follow in the tradition of Hans Christian Anderson. Oh lordy, lordy. What we're witnessing is the childishness of civilizations.

So let's start off with the Department of Home Truths. This is not an issue of secularism versus Islam. For Muslims, the Prophet is the man who received divine words directly from God. We see our prophets as faintly historical figures, at odds with our high-tech human rights, almost caricatures of themselves. The fact is that Muslims live their religion. We do not. They have kept their faith through innumerable historical vicissitudes. We have lost our faith ever since Matthew Arnold wrote about the sea's "long, withdrawing roar". That's why we talk about "the West versus Islam" rather than "Christians versus Islam" - because there aren't an awful lot of Christians left in Europe. There is no way we can get round this by setting up all the other world religions and asking why we are not allowed to make fun of Mohamed.

Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man. I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled "September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God's sake, don't ask why". When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase "for God's sake" because "we didn't want to offend certain sensibilities". Ah-ha, so we have "sensibilities" too.

In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech - or cheap cartoons - we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much. I also enjoyed the pompous claims of European statesmen that they cannot control free speech or newspapers. This is also nonsense. Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had "anti-Semitism" screamed into our ears - and rightly so - just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.

Furthermore, in some European nations - France is one, Germany and Austria are among the others - it is forbidden by law to deny acts of genocide. In France, for example, it is illegal to say that the Jewish Holocaust or the Armenian Holocaust did not happen. So it is, in fact, impermissable to make certain statements in European nations. I'm still uncertain whether these laws attain their objectives; however much you may prescribe Holocaust denial, anti-Semites will always try to find a way round. We can hardly exercise our political restraints to prevent Holocaust deniers and then start screaming about secularism when we find that Muslims object to our provocative and insulting image of the Prophet.

For many Muslims, the "Islamic" reaction to this affair is an embarrassment. There is good reason to believe that Muslims would like to see some element of reform introduced to their religion. If this cartoon had advanced the cause of those who want to debate this issue, no-one would have minded. But it was clearly intended to be provocative. It was so outrageous that it only caused reaction.

And this is not a great time to heat up the old Samuel Huntingdon garbage about a "clash of civilizations". Iran now has a clerical government again. So, to all intents and purposes, does Iraq (which was not supposed to end up with a democratically elected clerical administration, but that's what happens when you topple dictators). In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood won 20 per cent of the seats in the recent parliamentary elections. Now we have Hamas in charge of "Palestine". There's a message here, isn't there? That America's policies - "regime change" in the Middle East - are not achieving their ends. These millions of voters were preferring Islam to the corrupt regimes which we imposed on them.

For the Danish cartoon to be dumped on top of this fire is dangerous indeed.

In any event, it's not about whether the Prophet should be pictured. The Koran does not forbid images of the Prophet even though millions of Muslims do. The problem is that these cartoons portrayed Mohamed as a bin Laden-type image of violence. They portrayed Islam as a violent religion. It is not. Or do we want to make it so

saadia · 06/02/2006 22:40

No Kathlean that's not what I'm saying. I respect Jewish people immensely for sticking to the original tenets of the faith and I also respect Christians. I am not saying that Muslims have a monopoly on morality.

Yes mb I am asking that no-one on the planet ever draws a picture of the Prophet (pbuh). No-one knows what he looked like. Any picture would be a mis-representation and a distortion.

bloss, words pretty much (finally) fail me. You have views on the Prophet (pbuh), I have views on how Christians have distorted the true message of Jesus. We cannot even agree to disagree.

I think we will all have to just sit back and watch the flames get bigger. People have now died in the protests. I hope the cartoonists are pleased with themselves.

Oh no, of course they are completely blameless. It's those dastardly ignorant Muslims who can't take a joke.

You think I'm narrow-minded. Can you not even allow for the hint of a possibility that you might have got it wrong? That those Muslims protesting all over the world might have a genuine grievance.

snowleopard · 06/02/2006 22:44

"It makes sense to me that, given that most of all have a sense of morality/right and wrong, that we will one day be held accountable for our actions."

Saadia, you are implying that non-muslims and/or the non-religious can't have morality.

On the contrary, as an atheist, I see myself as having a far purer morality than a religious person. Why? - because it is based on the simple and universal principle of avoiding causing other people suffering. So are most state laws, if you think about it. Whereas religions are full of arbitrary laws, such as don't eat pork, don't eat beef, don't have sex before marriage, don't draw the prophet etc. etc. etc. These laws may be important to you and I respect a religious person's right to adhere to them if they want to. But they actually have nothing to do with morality in the sense of ethics, objective right and wrong. Do they?

And I agree ScummyMummy, what is wrong with a vacancy at the heart? As a rationalist I freely admit I'm mystified by the universe and the meaning of life. Perhaps it is, actually, quite hard to understand. Perhaps I'm strong enough to accept that there are things I don't know. But I don't have an emotional or moral vacancy - because my morality is based on love, respect, kindness and tolerance, not on trying to force a random set of rules on other people, or thinking that my beliefs justify violence.

bloss · 06/02/2006 22:47

Message withdrawn

saadia · 06/02/2006 22:47

that's not what I am saying snowleopard. I believe that God gave us all this sense of right and wrong because we will all be asked to explain ourselves, regardless of what we believe in this life.

edam · 06/02/2006 22:48

I'm not a Muslim and I'll draw whatever I like thanks very much. Don't feel obliged to obey the rules of a religion to which I don't belong. If you wear a headscarf, would you stop because I ordered you to?

You are not doing your cause any favours. This sort of absurdity just drives people into the arms of the BNP.

saadia · 06/02/2006 22:49

bloss, in this country the law allows you to but I would rather that you didn't. In my ideal society, you would not be allowed to.

bloss · 06/02/2006 22:49

Message withdrawn

bloss · 06/02/2006 22:51

Message withdrawn

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