"Mothers, stop moaning!" Guardian article directed partly at MNers

[MrsJamin]

here

What do we think? Is she justified?

Personally, I can see her perspective, and utterly empathise, but I still think that we have the right to discuss our parenthood problems on MN, even if she doesn't believe that mothers ever have the right to have problems or discuss them. She is expecting wrath from us, so let's surprise her shall we?

saffronwblue I couldnt have said it better if I tried! well said

anewmotivatedme love your name and loved that article, I hope this women reads what has been said in reply to her and I hope she finds some answer in it and realises that this attitude to her life will only cause more misery and bitterness...I'd feel very uncomfortable in her company with my babies thats for sure.

My step mum couldnt have children, never has she expressed any bitterness ever, yes some tears and sadness. I know everyone handles life differently but she needs to realise that this is her life, accept it or do something about it like adopt

motivated that blog post is spot on, and dare I say, the (sad) reality is that imho, that poster would actually make a better mum than the writer of the Guardian piece! She came across as so much more balanced, mature and able to recognise that the grass isn't always greener, whereas the original writer appeared rather self-obsessed.

Well, I know which of those two women - Bibi Lynch or Marie Phillips - I'd rather know in RL. 'Embittered, angry and miserable', or 'have fun and make the best of what you've got'.

Going to add grist to her mill here and say she is being a tad precious.

Life is not fair. To anyone.
As DD2 sometimes says -- 'cry about it'.

Tried to namechange for this burt couldn't so decided to do this openly.
5 years ago when the dcs were 6m and 3, we were on a group holiday with a couple who werettc.She was 40. At that time I was finding life pretty difficult (relationship with dh not good, threatened redundancy at work, two v. young dcs). We had the most steaming row, she basically said I had no right to complain as I had 2 dcs. I don't think anyone has ever upset.me.so much. I was 30 I felt like my life was over (ds was unplanned). She walked away from a marriage in her 30s, had had a whale.of a time , met the man of her dreams and was now moaning that she might not have children.

They now have 2dds and I have repaired my marriage and have my life back. But I will never forget her insensitive remarks. So it cuts both ways. IMO

Very sad for her of course, what pag said about context is right. There is all manner of suffering in the world, but it's all relative and doesn't make one persons problems angles imporatant to them. No one posts "the kids are driving me nuts today I hate them and wish they were never born" because no one feels that way.

Would she feel any better if people spent all day posting "my DC are so wonderful, I am blessed and their cuteness bring a tear to my eye"? No. She'd still feel shit. Because her sadness isn't compounded by hearing mother's moan, it is compounded by not having children, which is absolutely not the fault of those that do.

Just re read the last para.

"...never be protected by the father of my child, never be loved as the mother of his child,"

Er, silly me, I hadn't realised all babies come with a loving protective father, I had best call the hospital, I never got mine in the Bounty pack!

She certainly hasn't spent much time on the Relationships board, has she?

Sometimes I moan a bit about the little stuff because it takes my mind off the stuff that can't be repaired. It doesn't mean I'm not overwhelmingly grateful for my children. The 'gusset up' knickers left on the bathroom floor every blummin morning serve as a welcome distraction from the bigger issues.

Well, if mothers are allowed to moan about the stuff that stresses them... then surely this lady is allowed to moan about the stuff that stresses her... even if both mothers and her are deliberately ignoring the bigger picture for the duration of the moan?

I think she's been a bit unfair in the article, but tomorrow and for most of the rest of her life she'll go back to smiling nicely when friends tell her about the lovely things their children have done, etc etc. It's just a moan.

I have sympathy for her: I found out before I was 20 that I wasn't going to be able to have my own children. And I'm adopted myself. That feeling of being adrift in a sea of no genetic history and no genetic future is awful, and does not go away with time, no matter how well you learn to deal with it. (PLEASE, no-one tell me that adoption is almost the same, because it just isn't. Wonderful, but not the same.) But I also wonder just how well I would have coped with some of the things I've seen my friends cope with when their happy families have not turned out as planned.

I always find it strange when people use the general public as their therapy sofa either in writing an article as this Bibi has done or in song lyrics, Eminem comes to mind.

If she needs a therapist she should get one, if she needs a support group she should come on here and find other people in the same situation and have a right moan!!!

Not having kids is tough! But having kids is also tough! Neither of these groups trumps the other and they both have stuff to moan about.

Comparing pain is always silly... I remember trying to shut myself up about my early pregnancy niggles because I wondered what it would be like to be a pregnant refugee fleeing a war zone (by the way does such a lady get to moan in Bibi's eyes???)! This plight is worse than mine but it didn't make my niggles go away and the only things which helped was having a moan. I doubt bashing mums who had just delivered, and thus further up the food chain in my eyes, would have helped in any way...

Reading this made my blood boil. I do feel sorry for her of course. Children are the most precious gift in the world, and to not have one must be heartbreaking,HOWEVER they are also difficult. As any parent knows if your child becomes ill it is heartbreaking. She will never feel the joy, but neither the pain. I don't believe we all complain too much we just need a little help and reassurance we are doing the best for our children. I'm new to mums net but already feel its a great place for mums to chat about our worries. She may think we are superior but as we all know we don't feel it!

Ah crap that's twenty minutes of my life wasted

I like moaning

Awooga

I get a bit irritated at the general discrepancy between the work offered to male and female columnists, and the way that the women are expected to vomit up the soul of their personal lives to earn a living and sell papers. It also makes me a little cynical about how much in these columns is sincerely felt, and how much is exaggerated for our entertainment and fairly ugly desire to consider ourselves superior.

I'm aware that's slightly off-topic, but I try not to read pieces like the one referred to for those reasons. I don't enjoy the sense of voyeurism that comes with sexist 'confessional' journalism.

I think that even if the author had only ever come across mothers who smiled, appreciated their kids 24/7 and never complained, she would still have berated them for being smug and unsympathetic to the fact that she can't have children.

It's not the complaining that is making her feel bad. It's simply the fact that others have children, and she cannot. Which of course is terribly sad for her. I can't begin to comprehend how it must feel.

But the premise of her article is pretty simplistic and, IMO, flawed. and I'm not really sure why she chose to write about it in a national newspaper.

Dollar, I presume. There's a big market for women whining in the broadsheets- which is ironic, considering that mumsnet is being berated for the same thing, by the look of it. There's the odd column too from men, who nevertheless get to be ironic and self-deprecating more often than pouring out their soul for the edification of the readership, but as I say, the whole thing has a bit of a sexist edge to it in my opinion: men generally get employed to comment on current affairs, politics etc, important stuff, while women are expected to restrict themselves to sharing their interior life. That's how it comes across to me, anyway.

The article seems rather "me, me, me". How does she know that being a mother problems are always "surmountable", or that mothers are the luckiest people alive? Perhaps if she wasn't so self obsessed she would have found someone to have kids with in the first place.

I thought the article posted upthread by Marie Phillips? was excellent but she was talking about how she is affected and what she has put in the place of having children, and everyone is different. I absolutely agree that childless people have fantasies about what having children is like and the reality is very different.

I remember going to visit my bf's grandparents when I was about 20 and had an imagine of a little baby dressed in white sitting on my knee (days before seat belts and car seats - we used to put them in a carry cot on the back seat!) Fast forward another 3 years and yes we were taking our son to meet the great grprts, at 6 months old, and it was a long journey. He had been in and out of that carry cot, crying and squawking, face covered in rusk crumbs, and red from crying..............and his carry cot sheet and clothes were all crumpled and I was done in!

I do feel very sorry for the woman who can't have children - the thing is I have a theory that whatever we don't have in our life, we think if only we had that all would be well. My DH was made redundant and just though anyone who had a job was perfectly Ok, another's husband died and it was very sad but she still holds on to the belief (30 years since the death) that anyone who has a husband is OK.

Re adoption. I don't think this is a viable option at all. I have spent 30 years of my working life in children's services, the last 15 as a tm mgr in fostering & adoption - I am now retired. Women like the one in question want a baby - a white 6 week baby, and they are quickly disabused of this idea as there are very very few. She will be asked to consider an "older" child and offered an 8 year old maybe who (like all children awaiting adoption) have suffered deep trauma in their young lives and this causes problems to a greater or lesser effect throughout the child's lifetime. I have seen marriages broken up and people having mental health problems, through trying to cope with very damaged children.

I do wonder why this woman goes on MN - this must surely rub salt in her wounds. I worked with a group of people and we all had children apart from one (and I didn't like her at all) but I always made sure I talked to her about something else when the chat turned to grown up kids, grandchildren etc., as I felt embarrassed sitting there, thinking she may be feeling awful. Don't know if she was but she was always happy to chat about something else. People used to ask me after why I was talking to her (she was a real bitch of a woman and was very unpopular) and when I explained they didn't seem to take it on board because she was so nasty!

Sorry I'm rambling a bit.........but I DO definitely feel for that childless woman (forget her name) and anyone else in that position.

When you are having a tough time and really strugging it does not help to know that Mrs Brown down the road has a dying husband and no money as that doesn't give you practical help with whatever you are struggling with.